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New Israeli-made political news site

December 19th, 2007  ·  141 Comments

I want to inform the Zionist.com community of a new Israeli-created political news website that I think will interest many of you news and politics junkies.

Skewz is similar to other “social” news sites in that you have to register as a member of the site before submitting the stories and links that make up the site’s content. It then departs from the norm by offering a sliding scale you can use to filter what stories and links you are shown based on political slant, ranging from radically left-wing to far right-wing.

I, for one, find this very useful, as I typically depend on trusted blogs and other personal commentary sites to bring me up to speed on political issues I may run across but have little understanding of.

For example, I have been in Israel my entire adult life, so have little understanding of the health care debate that is such a major fixture of the US presidential campaign. When something happens or is said regarding this issue, I usually scan the mainstream media reports about it, and then head to the blogs and commentary sites to learn the background info.

Now, when I do this, I prefer to be schooled by authors who share my conservative outlook (though I don’t shy away from peeking at what the other side it saying also). But with most social news sites that aggregate blogs and commentary websites, I receive a deluge of results from left-leaning writers.

Skewz allows me to eliminate that clutter and be served results that are more in line with how I would view the topic, if I was more knowledgeable about American health care.

The user base at Skewz is not very big yet, so the content selection is still a bit slim. But with the presidential election just around the corner, I think the site will grow quickly and will become a great resource for folks like me. Check it out: www.skewz.com

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141 comments so far ↓

  • 1 Ed in Oregon // Dec 19, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    Hello Ryan, from one major conservative to another. I have told President Bush that in order to find me, he would have to look up as I am close to out of eye sight as a conservative compared to him. I also understand Israel better than he does. If he did understand Israel and their land deal from GOD, he would not try to divide the Country. He has caused a great deal of trouble here in the US in trying to divide your peoples land.

    Now, I did try that skews web site. NOT that interesting. I am my own webmaster and it has a bit to be desired. I do not bother with such as these types. I spend my time looking over medical web sites and theology web sites to get others ideas to see how off track they are or to get ideas that have not occurred to me.

    Now, as far as the health care system in our USofA is concerned, this is my input to you. In America for the most part the general public eats junk food. GOD designed the body to need vitamins and minerals and to have a normal running intestinal tract. My GOD called job is to relate proper nutrition and theology to those that are not informed enough to be able to sort out the truth. Most of the “food” in the commercial US has little or no nutritional value.

    The general public of the USofA is generally very sick. WHY is that? They have such weakened bodies from eating denatured products that their bodies are toxic. I do not understand why bacteria and viruses can flourish in such conditions, but they do. I had to clean out my folks septic tank many years back. I found hundreds of worms around the waste in the tank. WORMS!! What are worms doing in there. Apparently, they feed on the bacteria.

    This is why the USofA citizens are screaming for health care. They depend on the Allopaths (AMA) for their suppressants to keep going. The Allopathic organizations use suppressants to suppress disease instead of removing the toxins that make a home for disease. I started this study nearly 26 years back. I had to clean out the toxins from my body. I am not through yet, but I have cleaned out enough that the normal viruses and bacteria cannot get a hold on me. I went on a intestinal cleanse some 24 years back. I took a week to get a colon full of waste out. A very toxic intestinal tract will spread toxins to all the surrounding organs. This results in a very weak body and eventual death if not handled properly.

    The majority of the public depend on these chemical suppresants so heavy that any politician that will guarranty their ability to get them may win the election.

  • 2 Frank // Dec 20, 2007 at 1:31 am

    Hi Ryan,

    I checked out Skewz and loved it! You are right that it is really easy to get the spectrum of opinions on a topic.

    thanks for bringing it to our attention.

    frank

  • 3 Ben Barrack // Dec 20, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    Skewz is an incredibly well-done site!

    Cutting edge stuff!

  • 4 Joni // Jan 16, 2008 at 5:34 pm

    That “colon cleanse” comment was indeed interesting. Had nothing to do with Ryan’s article, but was still interesting. :)
    Note of interest: I’ve read that everyone has worms in their body. When a person dies and decays, worms are present. They came from WITHIN the body. So I’ve heard.
    As for politics and the new site, I’ve just about had it with politics. I’m convinced that it is totally impossible to be Christ-like AND a politician. They are all corrupt, greedy, liars, not to ever be trusted.

    Bush proclaimed christianity, won the election (2x) only because christians believed him and voted for him (including myself). What a sore disappointment for all of us.

    Now I pray that christians learned something from this and don’t make the same mistake AGAIN. Many are voting for Huckabee. I think to myself… “HERE WE GO AGAIN!” OY VEH!!!

    Please read:
    THE JEW
    http://www.poemsbycc.com/TheJew.html

    ISRAEL FOREVER!!!!!

  • 5 David Ben-Ariel // Feb 2, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    Thank you, Ryan, for bringing that website to light. How have you been in Israel your entire adult life? You’re a Christian Zionist, nahon? Is the Temple Mount open for “tourists”? Please consider writing another article about the Temple Mount to keep it in our hearts and minds.

    Shavua tov,

    David

    http://www.DavidBenAriel.org

  • 6 Ryan // Feb 3, 2008 at 1:36 pm

    Hi David – Yes, I am a Christian Zionist. I was in Israel for about 8 years on tourist visas doing primarily volunteer work. Then I married an Israeli, so now I have residency status.

    “Tourists” are able to get atop the Temple Mount at this time, but may not even move their lips in silent prayer if they are Christian or Jewish.

    I will be writing some fresh content for Zionist.com very soon.

  • 7 Al // Feb 3, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    Ryan,

    One day soon, you will be able to pray and praise out loud to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob on the Temple Mount and dance the hora with Messiah Yeshua Himself. Yea swiftly and soon. Amen.

    -Al

  • 8 kambiz // Feb 13, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    down with israel
    down with america

  • 9 Jacob // Feb 17, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    Ryan,
    your a sucker! Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and David were all bunch of really good story tellers who succeeded in fooling desperate people into giving them power. If we were in Greek times you would be speaking with the same zeal about Apollo and all those other debunked Gods of that day. You should stop thinking about how great things will be in some distant far away lala land or in the next life and worry about making things better now, here, for you and your fellow man. Do you believe that the Messiah will some day come? Wow how great a way to fool people is that just the way communist did it by promising a better distant future of course with no set date but in order for it to come about you must sacrifice and devote yourself today and of course any questions are not allowed or answered with “have faith”. Well it didnt work for Stalin. Mao. Che. Castro, it wont work for your Messiah and im sure I will someday be able to get most people to agree that your King David, Jesus, and Mohamad should be added to that list of leaders of failed movements. Oh yeah and that site you recommended, who ever posts these blogs, is AlJEZZERA for jews, its SKWED alright, skwed to the extreme political right where all the jewish Bin Ladens are …. it sucks

  • 10 waiting // Feb 23, 2008 at 11:36 pm

    “Keeping silent since 19 December 2007…”

    Hey man, is anything news-worthy happening in Israel? Where are you?

    Are the watchmen asleep?

  • 11 Ryan // Feb 24, 2008 at 8:58 am

    @waiting: I do apologize for the lack of activity here at Zionist.com lately. There is certainly news-worthy happenings going on here in Israel, and I am writing about it all on a daily basis over at Israel Today.

    I do plan to get Zionist.com moving again very soon, possibly with a slightly different format.

  • 12 Al // Feb 24, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    Ryan,

    Even in your absence, we have been quite busy on your website.
    You should not have to do all the work. People have questions all of the time. Those of us who frequent zionist.com need to be ready to respond, esp those who truly know Yeshua and love Israel, like myself.

    The watchmen are definitely on the alert.
    But we do miss you, Ryan.

    Keep up the good work that you have started. I also appreciate your colleague, Stan Goodenough. Whether we are in Israel like the two of you or in America like myself, we need to be ready to contend for the faith that has been entrusted to us. People definitely need to be informed about the many things happening in these last days. We need to remember to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

    I attend a church whose focus is not exactly on Israel or the Jewish people. I have impressed on my pastor that we need to remember Israel and the Jewish people. Now on the weekly annoucements, a big message on the screen reads to remember to pray for the Jews in Israel and their situation. It’s a small step towards becoming more Israel-minded in my local congregation. I am a Messianic gentile and will do all I can to impress upon my fellow gentile brethren that we need to remember Israel and be ready to minister to them.

    Shalom B’Shem Yeshua,

    -Al

  • 13 Matt // Feb 24, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    Al,

    A number of years ago our church had a gentleman from Jews for Jesus come to our church and do a “Christ in the Passover” demonstration for us. It was outstanding . It really helped to open the congregations’ eyes to the Jewish roots of Christianity. We have since invited Jews for Jesus back several times, to repeat the Passover message and also for a worship night (J4J has a traveling worship group that comes and does worship from a Jewish perspective–they also share their personal testimonies).

    Maybe you coule suggest to your pastor to look into having someone from Jews for Jesus come to your church.

    I highly recommend it.

    Blessings

  • 14 R.W Harkin // Feb 25, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    Wow. You know im going over some of these postings here and i can’t believe what im reading in a great number of cases. I myself am an agnostic, i was not raised with any particular religion imposed upon me but over the course of my life have been open to learning the many aspects of faith around the world. As creatures who are conciously able to process thought , yet at the same time are incapable of overall understanding the entity of the universe in wich we live, we are psycologically vulnerable to mysticism as a means of copeing with this lesser understanding. Faith can be best described as a form of mysticism, whereas religion would best be described as the rigid sets of social, political and personal beliefs, revolving around the collective sense of faith or mysticism. When individuals allow organizations with agendas to appeal to this universal sense of mysticism (even the harshest of athiests has an imagination dosent he?) then to ones self insane notions can be rationalized. Without getting too specific, notions like Ownership of land by divine right (j. Superiority over others as a “chosen” or “divine” people (wich by the way most religions historically have claimed , almost all of them in fact) . We are told that people whose beliefs are contrasting of our own are wrong , even though these beliefs differ only cosmetically. And at times that these people pose a THREAT to our own personal security. Are you oblivious to the fact that from the perspective of a secular human mind, claims like “… to God Almighty and that you don’t give an inch of land that Jevovah gave in covenant to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The land is yours. Given by the One who never changes His mind. Given by the one who lives Forever.” – Steve & Debbie Wenge ARE INSANITY. They don’t sound insane or seem insane , they are , by all definitions , completely insane , not to mention dillusional. No magic man in the sky gives ANYONE claim to ANY peice of this beautiful planet. You own the land on wich you stand , and that is all. Jung said it best ” Any man with his witts about him can see that the world is cold, dead and unending.”
    This is a hard fact to cope with only if you ignore the immense beauty and spiritualism found within our own personal connections to the world in wich we live. When a connection to a manmade institution intercedes this connection we loose touch with reality and it becomes easy to make claims like this. Think about what youre saying , would another group of people , with another sense of divine right towards the same land not be just as entitled, under the same sense of logic. And furthermore since no religion is based on fact , rather interpetation of legend and myth, none can be proven or even made a case for. Move beyond these petty differences and squabbles , for the worlds sake.

  • 15 Matt // Feb 25, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    Mr. Harkin,

    Well, since you seem to think that people of religious faith and Christians in particular, are delusional and insane I am sure that we will all immediately renounce our faith.

    In case your superior intellect failed to grasp my meaning: that was sarcasm.

    I find it interesting that you resort to quoting Jung to make your point, especially on a website devoted to supporting Jewish people. Jung, with all of his “answers” into ultimate truth and spirituality, was a notorious womanizer who nearly drove his wife crazy with his many extramarital affairs and, as if that were not lurid enough, he was a Nazi sympathizer.

    He is the man that you look to for guidance regarding issues of eternity? And we are the insane people?

    Furthermore, Jung’s area of study, psychoanalysis, is no more based on facts, “scientific” or otherwise, than any religious belief. It is merely the interpretation of observation of human behavior, as much a matter of myth as anything I know of.

    Being an “agnostic” is nothing more than willful ignorance. You decry people of faith, and yet ignore the reality that your beliefs, if such awkward, inconsistent ideas can be termed as such, are as much a matter of “faith” as any religious conviction.

    Do you not see the incongruity of statements like “the world is cold, dead and unending” and ” immense beauty and spiritualism found within our own personal connections to the world in wich we live”? How can something that is “cold and dead” have “immense beauty”? Your thoughts are astray my friend.

    The ground you stand on is shaky indeed.

    In Romans 1:20 the Apostle Paul (a man far more worthy of respect and admiration than Jung or his colleagues) declared:

    “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

    The existence and nature of God is discernible simply by looking around you at His creation. I encourage you to worship your creator, in Spirit and in Truth, and not to be led astray by deluded men who were unable to manage their own lives.

    It is true that some Christians believe crazy things, but that has no bearing on the Truth of God. Do not let people with whom you disagree be the reason that you refuse to acknowledge your creator. He will not accept that as an excuse on judgment day.

    Call on Him while he is near, for today is the day of salvation. No man is sure of tomorrow.

    -Matt

  • 16 Al // Feb 26, 2008 at 5:37 am

    Hi Matt,

    Thanks for the tip.
    I actually know a lot of people from Jews for Jesus as well as others from my years in the Messianic Movement.
    It was through their ministry that I came to faith in Yeshua years ago.

    I’m actually planning a VBS program later this year that will feature all of the Feasts of the Lord that were given to Israel as well as all followers of Yeshua. My hope is that God will use this to ignite a zeal for Israel and things Jewish among my gentile brethren. In a strange way, the church has scales on its eyes as well when it comes to these things. It’s time for these scales to come off as we are coming to the days just before the return of Messiah. We need to be the midwives and the watchmen on the walls to Israel as she is restored in full measure (Romans 9-11).

    Peace,

    Al

  • 17 R.W Harkin // Mar 4, 2008 at 3:38 am

    It dose not surprise me that in a response to my own post, greater in length than said post 90% of the subject matter is not even touched on. Instead the author begins by portraying the fact that in my personal beliefs faith in an imaginary creator, any of the hundreds of wich created by man steming back to indigineous worship of various idols in many early cultures, is by definition dillusion.
    Indeed i do believe this. As do a growing number of people worldwide who fail to see the logic in claims like

    “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”
    “The existence and nature of God is discernible simply by looking around you at His creation”

    I laughed when i read this, out loud and by pure instinct to its ridiculousness. I assume the top portion at this attemp at justification of your insanity is a quote from some ancient religious scribe of sort, the bible maybe , but wich bible. You site no source here, who said this , God? Jesus? The Pope?
    Lets look at what it says … basically the jist of it from my perspective is that the proof that one force completely undetectable to humankind controls the world is all around us in this forces own creations.
    O…k… so your evidence that god created earth is the existence of earth. No logic here except backwards logic.
    When i look around me i see manmade creations and naturemade creations IE life.
    And now you’ve got a golden ticket haven’t you. Life.
    if i don’t believe in god how can i possibly explain life. The first life , you know single function, single celled “lifeforms”. Something close to M. genitalium todays most basic bacteria . Well lucky for me i dont have to, science is now and hopefully will be allowed to do so in the nea.
    Scientists in the US have recently discovered a series of DNA structures that could if applied in a lab form life using non-living ingredients. The goal of this experiment would be to achieve life stemmed from non life under the same conditions that would be found at the time in earths history (wich extends far beyond the history of man, his gods or life) at wich this first happened in nature.
    Alas countless religious activist organizations and “ethics” commitees have already begun to legally harass these groups of revered intellectuals and attack them.
    The church upheld the strongest support of disbelief in the fact of evolution. In 1870 the vatican “council on faith and reason” released this
    “9. Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth.” (Vatican Council I)

  • 18 R.W Harkin // Mar 4, 2008 at 3:39 am

    We also used to think piles of dirty rags spawned field mice, luckily science came along.

  • 19 R.W Harkin // Mar 4, 2008 at 4:01 am

    “My hope is that God will use this to ignite a zeal for Israel and things Jewish among my gentile brethren”
    - Al

    simply haing a term for “everyone eltse” and grouping them is racist, nazis used tactics such as this to incite hatred and feelings of superiority among their followers.

    When you refer to all “non-jews” as “gentiles” you are lumping in together thousands of different cultures and peoples into one “other” category.

    And so the term Gentile we find is one of the most racist ever invented as it refers to nearly every person on earth in a negative fashion.

    I hope that in your VBS Program to generate respect for your peoples culture, you pay a tad more respect to every other one existing worldwide.

  • 20 R.W Harkin // Mar 4, 2008 at 4:33 am

    Modern definitions of the word boil down to non-jew as a practical use in the english language.

    Wikipedia it if you like

    I ask why it is still used today in spite of its obvious obliviousness to the vast, vast majority of the worlds culture?

  • 21 Matt // Mar 4, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Mr. Harkin,

    I am afraid that your ability to read is as dubious as your ability to understand. You stated:

    “…is a quote from some ancient religious scribe of sort, the bible maybe , but wich bible. You site no source here, who said this , God? Jesus? The Pope?”

    In fact, I referenced my quote quite accurately: “In Romans 1:20 the Apostle Paul…”

    If, as I suspect, you have never taken the time to actually read The Bible (there is only one) then I suppose you are ignorant of the fact that Romans is a part of it.

    Even more likely, you probably did not really take the time to read my entire post. Sir, your arrogance is your undoing. You scoff at the faith of millions, and then you “laugh out loud” when confronted with God’s word.

    And yet, what have you to be proud of? You blindly follow “science,” something that is constantly in flux and transition (it was not too many years ago that “scientists,” some of whom were friends of your pal Jung, were teaching the “scientific fact” that non-white, non-Aryan people were subhuman).

    Your source of truth is Wikipedia. Let me tell you, in case you are unaware, that Wikipedia us a highly unreliable resource for any serious study. No respectable college professor in America would accept it as a legitimate resource for even a first year student’s essay.

    And you laugh at God? No sir, you are the object derision, not God.

    I will conclude my interaction with you on this note (from the Bible):

    Revelation 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    and this word of exhortation:

    Romans 10:9 “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved”

    You, and everyone else on earth, including me, are guilty of those sins listed above. The punishment, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, is eternal suffering and separation from God.

    Your only hope of escaping this judgment is to believe in Jesus and Lord and to ask forgiveness for your sins, trusting in His work, not your own.

    I sincerely hope you do, but I am afraid I may be wasting my time reasoning with you, as the Bible also says:

    Pro 18:2 “A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind.”

    I hope I am wrong.

    -Matt

  • 22 R.W Harkin // Mar 5, 2008 at 12:57 am

    Once again you attack me and not my message.

    do you agree that Gentile is a racist term ?

    do you disagree?

    You constantle attack me but not my specific points leading me to believe that you have to response to my specific points.

    Instead of looking at Jungs work you look at his personal life with his wife? lol what does that have to do with his work? Because a man is adulterous he is therefore void of intellect? Is it possible that Jung completely understood his weakness and chose not to fight it? This may seem strange to you but then again , your not Carl Jung.

    An argument or debate is not the place to attack peopele, i dont attack your religion i attack its negative effects on the world. Its interceedes the connection between you and the natural system in wich you live.

    wich is more important your religion or your Species?

    One of these two we can afford to loose.

    do you consider yourself the same as everyone eltse or “different”?

    do you see other religions as being “wrong” and how can you not at least at a subconcious level believing in “one true god”?

    what if i said i was the one true god?

    would you think i was crazy?, what if i had really really old paper WITH WRITING saying i am the one true god?

    would i still be crazy?

    well what if lots and lots of other people believed me , and they thought i was the one true god, would they be crazy?

    be careful and look to yourself before you answer these

    Obviously you see me as in the wrong in my factual secular analysis of our existence yet all you provide to me are quotes FROM YOUR OWN religion. What if i started reading of the curran to convince you of the existence of Allah, hmmmm

    if your going to respond to my posts in argumentative fashion then please MAKE AN ARGUMENT.

    Oh and in WIKIPEDIAS defence i referenced it as a means of understanding the word Gentiles common use in todays society, i can think of no better source than an open ended encyclopedia. written and edited by the people of said society.

  • 23 R.W Harkin // Mar 5, 2008 at 1:00 am

    CORRECTION (so grammar dosent get in the way of your truly argumentative response)

    You constantly attack me or examples i provide but not my specific points, leading me to believe that you have no response to my specific points.

  • 24 R.W Harkin // Mar 5, 2008 at 1:22 am

    Oh and on the topic of there being only one “bible” AHHHH HA HA HA HA AHHHH HA HA HA HA HA

    SERIOUSLY?

    how many cultures thuought time do you think have had little books just as old and rich in verse to be INTERPRETTED as yours.
    Now how many of those books would fall under the category of a Bible?
    dozens?
    hundreds?
    Did the greek not write of their gods?
    The Mayans had a bible, they may have called it something eltse but … for all intense and purposes.
    is a Bible painted on a cave wall in pictures still not a bible if it can convince people as well as your words?
    To me they are all the same sir (and yes, i have read both the new and old test and ol’king james re-write ). Fairy tales we tell our kids like santa clause to keep them behaving.
    Except sometimes you need to keep adults behaving.
    So you tell them a fairy tale too.
    Tell me where the difference lies betewwn your beliefs in “god” and muslim beliefs in “allah” , wich translates directly to “god”. WITHOUT citing scrolls or attacking the personal customs of the muslim people.

  • 25 Matt // Mar 6, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    I think Rachel is again weeping for her children tonight; this time in Jerusalem.

    May the Lord of mercy comfort those who mourn.

  • 26 Jacob // Mar 11, 2008 at 9:57 am

    After the massacre carried out by the IDF last week I can’t help but feel hate for Israel and every thing it stands for. I was in Hong Kong and saw and El Al plane ready to board and thought to myself… the IDF killed as many Palestinians last week as there are jews about to get on this plane yet its not a big deal…. If this plane were shot up and every one were to die you wouldnt stop hearing about it on cnn. I truly hope Israelis some day wake up and stop this ethnic cleansing. Read this site http://www.shovrimshtika.org/ and you will see what YOUR soldiers say they have done, the crimes they have committed, lives taken, for now reason and in some cases for fun. There is no god but if there you better believe you would not be on his side. You are the modern day Nazi… for you murdering ways i hate you, for your indifference I wish you the same fateas tens of thousands of Palestinians and their families have been put through just for being.. suffering, humiliation, and death, maybe then you will see why your hated all over the world.

  • 27 Matt // Mar 11, 2008 at 9:11 pm

    Jacob,

    I doubt this will do any good, since the facts speak for themselves, but I’ll try. You made some very ugly and very inaccurate remarks in your post that I will try to deal with.

    “massacre carried out by the IDF last week” – first, Israel’s actions were compltely legal vis a vis international law. They were responding to military aggression sanctioned by the government in Gaza. Moreover, most of the deaths were military combatants. The deaths of the civilians is, of course, very sad. However, they were killed by accident, and every legal code in the world recognizes the need to establish intent if you are to accuse someone of murder (or massacre). To equate this with the intentional murder of young students is obscene.

    “are the modern day Nazi”- this is grotesque. Arabs in Israel are full citizens with equal rights and protections as Jews enjoy. If the Israelis were Nazis, or anything like, there would be no Arabs left in either Israel or the West Bank and Gaza; they would have all been rounded up and gassed many years ago.

    “maybe then you will see why your hated all over the world”- this is often repeated nonsense. Jews have been hated all of the world for centuries. Israel has nothing to do with it. Anti-Israel sentiment is simply a more PC way for people like you to spew your Jew hatred.

    I followed the link you provided and read some of the material. If these accounts are true (I say if because even in America there have been soldiers who have made all sorts of similar accusations against the US military and were later unable to substantiate them) then they are shameful. I will simply say that no nation, or military, is perfect.

    The IDF, however, is far from the worse military in the world. In fact, only recently a study showed that the IDF is guilty of committing far FEWER rapes of women in the areas in which it operates than almost any western army in similar circumstances anywhere in the world. Of course, this fact goes unreported in the biased media.

    I did you the courtesy of following your link and reading the info; maybe you will do the same for me:

    http://www.arabsforisrael.com/
    this is an Arab website devoted to showing support for Israel

    http://www.mythsandfacts.com/index.asp
    this site is an excellent resource for the actual history of this area, minus the lies and propaganda.

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/3/154714.shtml
    this site explains the connections between Arab terror and the Nazis. Read it and do some follow up research and you will see who are the real inheritors of the Nazi ideology today.

    If, as I hope, you are simply misinformed after being fed lies and distortions by the media then there is some chance that by actually learning the facts you will change your views.

    If, as I suspect, you hate Jews simply for being Jews then I am affraid there is little chance to help you.

    In either case you are a sad and pitiable creature.

  • 28 Seth // Mar 13, 2008 at 5:20 am

    Jacob –

    It’s sad that there is little or no outrage expressed in the media or at the U.N. when the folks over in Gaza rain rockets down on Israeli towns, schools and hospitals on a daily basis, yet as soon as the Israelis attempt to do something about it, they are slammed with criticism and accusations of monstrous behavior.

    Of course, this is the same formula applied whenever the “Palestinians” butcher innocent Israelis — no comment, until the Israelis respond to the attacks, then they are reacting “disproportionately” or executing a “massacre”.

    In your case, would you stand still for hours or days while someone continuously punches you in the face, groin and stomach, rather than defend yourself, for fear of appearing to commit a “disproportionate” response to the unending assault? If you punched your assailant hard enough to knock him out, would that constitute a “massacre”?

    I have to agree wholeheartedly with Matt here, you are sadly lacking in any number of qualities that define anyone worth taking seriously.

  • 29 Joseph // Mar 15, 2008 at 3:11 am

    Like usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle… Israel always responds disproportionately. Just remember the magic ratio 3:1. That’s the rough ratio of Palestianians who have died compared to Israelis over the short modern history of the Palestian-Israeli conflict.

    I hate to tell you Jacob, but the Israelis have been in violation of international law since 1967 (Res 242) by expanding settlements, roadblocks in the occupied territories.

    It’s basically apartheid, just like Jimmy Carter says. Are Israelis Nazis? Of course not!!! They’re South Africans.

    About the Palestinian militants… ANY use of force against civilian population is inexcusable. Random rockets serve no purpose other than terrorize the civilians they’re aimed at, and push moderate Israelis farther to the right. They are just as wrong as the Israeli response to it.

    Imagine this scenario: Someone in your neighborhood launches a mortar from their rooftop at a crowded neighborhood near-by. Instead of the police showing up with a SWAT team to take the one guy out and start an investigation, the Army shows up and solves the problem by attacking your entire neighborhood with high powerful missles and bombs fired from gunships and jets. Hmmmm…. there’s a reason why collective punishment is not allowed by international law Matt.

    Everything I value about Israelis and Palestinians and hope for in a future for both Israelis and Palestinians can be found here:

    http://www.combatantsforpeace.org/

    Peace.

  • 30 Matt // Mar 15, 2008 at 9:22 am

    Joseph,

    Your post is nevertheless riddled with illogical and inaccurate statements.

    First, your claim that Israel’s response to terrorism is “disproportionate” simply because more Palestinians die is, frankly, ignorant. I give you WWII as an example. Millions of Germans died, compared with ten of thousands of Americans. By your logic that makes America out to be the bad guys. All your 3:1 ratio proves is that Israel is more competant at stopping terror than Hamas is at committing it.

    Your contention that Israel has been violating international law since 1967 by building settlements and putting up road blocks us incorrect. Obviously, you completely misunderstand UN Res. 242, which called for Israel to withdraw from “territories” it had acquired during the ’67 war, not “all” of them. Israel has, to date, withdrawn from nearly all of the territory it acquired (all of the Sinai and Gaza). Res. 242 never intended for Israel to completely return to the pre-’67 borders. You can read a real analysis of it at http://www.mythsandfacts.com/Conflict/10/Resolution-242.pdf

    You accusation of apartheid against Israel is obscene. In South Africa the white majority discriminated against Blacks simply for being black. In Israel the Jewish people sometimes limit the freedom of movement of Arabs not because they are Arab, but in an attempt to stop mass terror attacks against civilians. If Israel was truly apartheid the recent gunmen from East Jerusalem would hardly have been able to drive his car from his home to a Jewish school, without once encountering any obstacles, go inside and slaughter 8 students. I suggest you buy a dictionary and read it before flinging libelous words at a nation.

    Further, Israel does not “use force” against civilians, as you accuse. Israel uses force against armed militants who, to their shame (if they had any) hide behind a civilian population. As mentioned in my previous post, guilt is established with the proving of intent. You claiming that Hamas’ intentional killing of civilians is “just as bad” as Israel’s accidental killing of civilians is ridiculous. Intential killing is far worse, as recognized by any real legal system.

    Finally, your cute little “scenerio” is pure fantasy. Let me give you a more accurate one:

    “Someone from your neighborhood launches a mortar from their rooftop at a crowded neighborhood nearby.” The neighbors of this “someone” voted him into office on a platform of “destroy the nearby crowded neighborhood,” helped him smuggle the rockets into his rooftop, and then cheered and passed out candy when his rockets killed children in the crowded neighborhood. Finally, after trying non-violent means (turning off the power) the people of the crowded neighborhood attacked the “someone.” In their restraint, they tried to spare the “neighbors” but were only partially succesful.

    Here is a proverb for those neighbors: you take fire into your bosom you get burnt.

    Blame the terrorist.

  • 31 Matt // Mar 15, 2008 at 9:25 am

    Correction:

    Paragraph three should read “the white minority discriminated against Blacks simply for being black. In Israel the Jewish majority sometimes limits the freedom of movement of Arabs not because they are Arabs, but in an attempt to stop mass terror attacks against civilians.”

    The point, hopefully, is obvious.

  • 32 Seth // Mar 16, 2008 at 8:54 am

    I will point out that Islamic terrorism is a communal entity: That is, the terrorist’s family, friends and neighbors know who he/she is and what he/she is about. They support the terrorist, they know enough to thwart him/her via the simple expedient of reporting the terrorist to the authorities.

    But they don’t, because they support the terrorist’s agenda.

    I submit that anyone, man, woman or child who is cognizant of the terrorist’s intent and does not report it is as guilty as the terrorist him/herself.

    I further suggest that anyone who either hands out candy or accepts said candy as celebration for a successful terror op is as eligible for extinction as the perpetrator of the deed.

    Golda Meir said that the only way there will be peace in the MidEast will be when the Arabs come to love their children more than they hate the Jews, and she was spot on.

    But the guy who lives or owns a business down the block from the terrorist’s apartment knows exactly who the terrorist is and what he’s up to, and if he fails to report the guy (or gal) before the fact, he is as culpable as the perpetrator for the butchery entailed in the terrorist’s activities. If he or his family dies in an Israeli retaliatory strike, there is no collateral damage involved.

  • 33 Joseph // Mar 17, 2008 at 9:36 am

    “First, your claim that Israel’s response to terrorism is “disproportionate” simply because more Palestinians die is, frankly, ignorant. I give you WWII as an example…”

    1. 3:1 ratio refers to civilians. But since you brought it up…

    2. Didn’t we go to war with Germany because it was occupying territories that didn’t belong to it?

    3. Key word: war. Germany was the initial biligerent, a recognized state with a massive war industry backing it up. It’s threat to complete European domination was real and immediate. It had advanced military technologies, a complete and organized army, and was pursuing (although unsuccessfully) to build an atomic bomb. Did the allied powers kick their butts? Yes, and it was necessary to do so. Did that justify leveling their cities and taking out a lot of civilians? No… that was a mixture of vengeance mixed with a desire to break the Germans psychologically.

    4. So do the terms recognized state, massive and advanced military, and real threat to mideast domination apply to Palestinians?

    No, but the first two terms certainly apply to Israel. Oh, and they have atomic weaponry.

    Do you know what other terms apply to Israel w.r.t. Palestinians? Occupying power, illegal settlements, checkpoints, curfews.

    What’s obscene is that you’d actually compare the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to WWII.

    “Your contention that Israel has been violating international law since 1967 by building settlements and putting up road blocks us incorrect”

    The whole world except U.S. and Israel would beg to differ. But let’s face it, it doesn’t matter if the US has a permanent seat on the security council and won’t follow up on the resolution.

    “Here is a proverb for those neighbors: you take fire into your bosom you get burnt.”

    From yours and Seth’s comments it’s clear that for you both, “Palestianian terrorist” is redundant.

    But as to the point that Palestinian civilians are not doing enough to thwart the militants…

    I think it’s pretty clear none of us has ever been in West Bank or Gaza, so now we’re all speculating, but let me ask you this. If you were a Palestinian civilian opposed to militant resistance of occupation, what would you do? Let’s make it a little trickier… you also have a wife and a daughter. Now, you know next door there are militants about to launch a rocket.

    I wonder what Hamas militants would do to you and your family if you informed local Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint?

    For that matter, I wonder what they’d do if you informed the Palestinian police? Whether or not the police would actually do anything about it is immaterial, because the key question is what are the repercussions to me and my family.

    Finally, even if you did inform Israelis, would the military action be any different compared to if they just fired the rockets first?

    Somehow, I doubt it.

  • 34 Matt // Mar 17, 2008 at 10:22 pm

    Jospeh,

    “3:1 ratio refers to civilians. But since you brought it up…”

    Since you brought it up, the ratio is actually closer to 1 civilian to every 10 terrorists killed, or even better. In fact, the IDF has one of lowest civilians killed ration of any army in the world. See here for a recent article discussing the matter:

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=08E7AACE-39F6-40A6-B77B-0A487B60366A

    “Germany was the initial biligerent, a recognized state with a massive war industry backing it up.”

    Read a history book: Israel accepted partition, the Arabs, including “Palestinians,” did not. The Arabs had “a massive war industry” comprised of half a dozen nations. The Palestinians today, along with Hezbollah, are simply fighting a proxy war-a continuation of the one Arabs waged to “drive the Jews into the sea-on behalf of several Middle Eastern States. They should be thankful Israel does not deal with the source and attack Tehren, Damascus, and Cairo.

    “The whole world except U.S. and Israel would beg to differ.”

    I am not overly concerned with the opinion of “the whole world,” which is held hostage to ME oil and terrified of angering the Mullahs. I am talking about every single League of Nations and UN resolution, including 242, that gives the Jews a legal right to a national homeland. Again, Res. 242 acknowledges that the pre-67 borders were completely unacceptable in light of Israel’s neighbors’ aggresiveness. 242 calls the West Bank and Gaza “disputed” not occupied. You attempted to use 242 to justify your incorrect nonsense opinion, and when I point out your ignorance conerning the subject you try squirm out of it by pointing to “world opinion”.

    “I wonder what Hamas militants would do to you and your family if you informed local Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint?”

    No need to wonder; you can google search “Palestinian Lynching” and see all of the gory photos of what these murders do to their own people for yourself.

    I actually know of several such Palestinians, and have met a few. They risked their lives to warn Israel of impending terrorist attacks. They are brave men and women who, unfortunately, are seldom mentioned in the MSM, who prefers to barbarize Israel. Many are killed by their Palestinian neighbors, as the google photos show (decency is unpopular in the midst of a bloody culture). Others have escaped and have been given sanctuary in Israel.

    “I think it’s pretty clear none of us has ever been in West Bank or Gaza”

    It is clear that you do not think much at all. I have lived in Palestinian areas of Israel and in the West Bank itself. I have studied Arabic in Jerusalem and know many, many Palestinians, many of whom are good, decent people. Unfortunately, those that are have been terrorized into silence by their murderous neighbors and have been ignored and left to their fate by westerners like you who prefer to defend the terrorists who make their lives miserable.

  • 35 Al // Mar 18, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    Joseph,

    Your website is nothing more than a front for the Palestinian agenda.
    That agenda is to take land away from Israel, supposedly to establish the land of “Palestine” with East Jerusalem as capital. You would have us believe that if this happens, Israel and her neighbors will live in peace.

    “Palestinian” militants that live in Gaza have clearly demonstrated over and over again what they will do if this were to occur. They will not cease from attacking Israeli civilian areas. They would easily attack more of Israel.

    “Palestinians” claim to have their own government, whether they be called Fatah or the Palestinian Authority. Israel responding with military force is totally appropriate since they are a sovereign nation being attacked by another. To argue that Israel should only respond by sending SWAT teams is beyond ridiculous. Fatah is using rocket artillery. If Mexico tried that with Texas, do you really expect Texas law enforcement to do the responding??

    No, you would see the US military respond in kind. That is what Israel is doing and should continue to do until this threat is permanently eliminated. I see no reason to take your organization or any “Palestinian” entity seriously.

  • 36 Rozz // Mar 31, 2008 at 6:17 am

    Hello: I partly read a book that I have from Carl Jung. The book was bought by my late father-in-law. My husband read it without any remark other than “what a load of bull”.

    I personally prefer to read my Bible where I know I am reading the truth. Sceptics can say what they like, but I stand by my word that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

    Happy reading should you be the owner of a Carl Jung book.

  • 37 Cameron // Apr 3, 2008 at 11:55 pm

    I am not trying to upset anyone, I want answers. Jesus Christ isn’t real so what is all this about?

    The outstanding and overwhelming facts that Jesus Christ never even walked this planet and is nothing more than a personification of the Zodiac starting with the first civilizations.

  • 38 Al // Apr 4, 2008 at 3:17 am

    Cameron,

    What are the “outstanding and overwhelming facts” that you refer to?

    There are many scholars, both religious and secular, that know Yeshua ben Yoseph(That’s Jesus’ real name, by the way) actually lived. Even Jews who don’t believe He is the Messiah know that He really lived.

  • 39 Matt // Apr 4, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    Cameron,

    You said: “I am not trying to upset anyone”

    Don’t worry, your next few remarks were so utterly ridiculous that I doubt any sane person could become upset by them.

    I agree with Al and would be interested to see what “outstanding and overwhelming facts” you can show to demonstrate the viability of your outlandish claim.

    However, I won’t hold my breath, since I suspect that you are merely attempting to get a rise out of people and you thought that by voicing some nonsense about Jesus you would.

    Good luck searching for those “facts”.

  • 40 Matt // Apr 7, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    I am curious about peoples’ thoughts concerning the recent conference held in Jerusalem by Pastor Hagee, and the upcoming conference being held by Joel Rosenberg.

    Pastor Hagee’s reception more closely resembled that given to a head of state, as he had meetings with Olmert, Lipni, and Netenyahu.

    Also, Hagee was recently denounced as an “extremist”by Leader of Reform Judaism in the US Eric Yoffie, who said Reform synagogues in the US should not work with Hagee and the group he heads, Christians United for Israel.

    What impact do Christian organizations have on Israeli policy? Do they have any? Should they have any?

    Ryan, did you attend the Hagee conference, or will be you attending the Rosenberg conference?

    What do you think about the impact these outspoken Christian leaders have on the Jewish community? Is their support widely appreciated in Israel, or is the Reform leader in the US and his opinion generally symbolic of Israeli Jewish attitudes as well?

  • 41 Al // Apr 8, 2008 at 1:55 am

    Matt and Ryan,

    Are you also aware of what Hagee said regarding Yeshua’s Messiahship? He actually stated that Yeshua was not the Messiah of the Jews but the Savior of the World?

    Another sign of the times.

    -Al

  • 42 Matt // Apr 8, 2008 at 10:34 am

    Al,

    Really? Hagee said that? I would love to read the original interview, sermon, paper, whatever in which he said it. Do you have a link?

  • 43 Matt // Apr 8, 2008 at 11:46 am

    Al,

    Nevermind, I tracked down the source of that little tidbit. Apperntly, in an advertisement for his most recent book, “In Defenese of Israel,” Hagee certainly seems to be claiming that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. You can view the video here:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI

    Obviously, as evidenced by the fact that I was unaware of this statement and the relative furor surrounding it in the Christian community, I am not a very close follower of Hagee.

    However, I have noticed a certain trend among some evangelicals that wish to befriend Jews and the State of Israel. Namely, denouncing, or at the very least completly ignoring, evangelism of Jewish people. I am unable to assert how widespread this is, but I have heard from a number of Messianic Jews that they feel marginalized and in some ways almost invalidated by this behaviour.

    Perhaps Hagee is simply attempting to ease Jewish concerns about his agenda. I have not read his book, and though the video seems pretty conclusive I will have to withhold judgment until I have.

  • 44 Al // Apr 8, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    Matt,

    A perfect example of what Shaul wrote to Timothy:
    “having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof”.

    The key to all this is that Yeshua is (past, present and future tense) Jewish. I am wary of people who claim to know Messiah and yet ignore or trivialize His identity. It shows that they really don’t know Him. When you are close to someone, you make it your business to know what makes that person tick.

    In the case of following Yeshua, you cannot truly know Him without coming to realize what it means to be Jewish. It is part of His identity.
    We have to decide who we are going to identify with. This is why we need to get back to the Hebrew roots of our faith as Christians or Messianic believers. Why should we expect the Jewish people to recognize Him as Messiah when we disregard or ignore HIS Jewishness?

    We are just kidding ourselves if that’s the case.

  • 45 Matt // Apr 8, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Al,

    I understand what you are saying, but do you think that is the error that Hagee is committing?

    I mean, when Hagee is saying “Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah” I do not think he is saying Jesus is not Jewish, but that Jesus is not the Messiah for the Jews.

    It seems like from what I have heard (again, I have not read the book) that Hagee’s point is something along the lines that Jesus is the saviour of the world, but that during His incarnation He did not come as the Messiah for Jews.

    Now, if this is His point then He is (in my opinion) completely wrong. When Jesus asked Peter “but who do you say that I am?” Peter’s response was “You are the Christ” i.e. Messiah. Peter’s statement was acknowledge as accurate by Jesus.

    I think the heart of the confusion arises from two different images portrayed in the OT of the Messiah. One, often called the Son of David, is portrayed as a King coming to reign over the National of Israel, and indeed the world. The other, often called the Son of Joseph, is portrayed as a suffering servant shown to suffer for the sake of mankind.

    Prior to Jesus’ coming people believed diferent things about the Messiah. One theory held that there would be two, one a King and one a Servant.

    Obviously, Jesus is both. Most evangelical Christians understand the meaning to be that during the incarnation Jesus was seen as Suffering Servant and that at His second coming we shall see Him as mighty King.

    The NT clearly shows many Jews were more focused on looking for the Son of David type of Messiah, and thus refused to recognize Jesus as Messiah when He would not meet their expectations.

    However, it seems that Hagee is somehow concluding that Jesus during the incarnation did not feel the role of Messiah for the Jews. Again, I need to read his book before I can say so for sure.

    As far as recognizing that Jesus is Jewish: Christianity for many years seemed to forget that, to its misfortune. A proper hermaneutic will acknowledge the Jewish authorship and cultural, social context which most of the Bible is written in as well.

  • 46 Al // Apr 9, 2008 at 3:57 am

    Matt,

    I appreciate your response. Sounds like you understand what’s really going on. I don’t know Mr. Hagee personally nor am I familiar with his ministry.

    However, when we tell the Jewish people that Yeshua was not the Messiah during His first coming two thousand years ago, then we are diminishing Him in their eyes. To say that He did not come as Messiah the first time is to actually contradict Yeshua Himself.
    When Yeshua was arrested and taken before the Sanhedrin, Matthew chapter 26: 62-64 records the following exchange between Yeshua and the cohen hagadol or high priest. The high priest asked Him point blank are you the Messiah, the Son of God. Yeshua responded:
    “YES, it is as you say. In the future, you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
    Yeshua is quoting from Daniel chapter 7.

    John Hagee and every true believer in Yeshua needs to tell the Jewish people that He is the Jewish Messiah whether it be during the first or second coming. It makes no difference. The same yesterday, today, and forever. Who was and is and is to come. That’s how the Bible describes Yeshua.

    What Mr. Hagee says is dangerous because he does not seem to understand what he is saying. It will only add confusion to the message contained in the scriptures. I hope and pray that he will realize the error of his ways.

    Peace,

    Al

  • 47 Matt // Apr 9, 2008 at 9:07 pm

    Al,

    I completely agree. I’m inclined to think that Hagee wants to make nice with the Jewish community and the Israeli government so he takes positions that make him less theatening, since Jewish people in general seem to loathe the idea of the “missionary”.

    It’s similar to some of the Christian organizations in Israel that agree not to try to convert any Jews in exchange for being allowed to stay in the country.

    The sad thing is that Jews NEED to here the gospel, they need to know that Jesus is their only chance for salvation, and when Christian ministers befriend Jewish people at the expense of Biblical Truth it really alienates the many Jewish Christians who are serving the LORD by witnessing to their Jewish brethren.

    It’s like saying the sacrifice many Jews make to follow Jesus, including being expelled from their families, being told by other Jews that they are not Jewish anymore, being reviled and even physically attacked, is for nothing.

    Of course, Hagee has denied that he believes two covenant theology (that gentiles get saved thru Jesus but Jews get saved some other way), which is a real slap in the face of Jewish Christians, so it’s hard to say what the heck he is talking about.

    Anyway, it looks like we are the only two people reading this thread anymore, but I would still like to know what Ryan thinks about the Hagee and Rosenberg conferences, and if he attended the one or plans to attend the other.

    Blessings,

    Matt

  • 48 Joseph // Apr 10, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Matt,

    “No need to wonder; you can google search “Palestinian Lynching” and see all of the gory photos of what these murders do to their own people for yourself.”

    “Unfortunately, those that are have been terrorized into silence by their murderous neighbors and have been ignored and left to their fate by westerners like you who prefer to defend the terrorists who make their lives miserable.”

    So you’ve met peaceful Palestinians in the West Bank who are good people? Thanks for arguing my point that military strikes on civilian neighborhoods are disproportionate and cruel. Collective punishment is what it’s called I believe.

    And you’ll have to forgive my assumption about you not having experienced Israel or Palestine in person, but I have to ask myself how someone who’s seen what ordinary Palestinians go through everyday in their struggle to survive in that diced up puzzle of a land that used to be the land they lived in for 2000 years can sit and judge a people for defending their right to live in it, however wrong their methods are.

    Speaking of methods and terrorism, yes I read history books. Not the historically revised propaganda texts Israel and their misguided bretheren in the US spew out, but ones that speak of how Israel was formed. You know, the ones that discuss the terrorsit tactics that the Irgun and Stern gangs used to drive Palestinians from their homes. How about Salha, the site of a massacre in 1948 where Palestinian males were lined up and gunned down by Zionist terrorists. Or how about the bombing of British headquarters at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem by Irgun on 22 July 1946, which killed 91 British, Jewish, and Arab civil servants? You mentioned lynching… like when Irgun lynched 2 British soldiers, whose bodies were found with the attached note pinned to their chest: “The hanging of the two spies… is an ordinary legal action of a court of the Underground which has sentenced and will sentence the criminals who belong to the criminal Nazi-British Army of Occupation”. Or how about when Zionist gunmen assasinated Lord Moyne in Cairo

    So no, I don’t buy the BS that Israel “accepted partition”. What a load of crap. Israel’s history includes several prime ministers and leaders who were part of these terrorist organizations (think Yitzak Shamir who was wanted by the British, or Sharon who tossed a few grenades in Palestinian villages himself, and allowed the massacres of Sabra and Chatila to occur).

    As to UN resolutions… I don’t have enough room on this post… see next post.

  • 49 Joseph // Apr 10, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    As to UN resolutions… supporter claims that the lack of the definitive article in res. 242 meant that Israel did not have to withdraw from all the territories it occupied in 1967 is a ridiculous political play on semantics. The resolution is clear and simple, and it’s inconceivable that the framers of 242 intended that Israel should pick and choose which bit of occupied land they would leave and which they would keep. Israel’s claim that it was permitted to keep Arab territory because the 1967 conflict had been an act of aggression by the Arabs and that the territories had been occupied during a defensive war was undermined by the UN resolution’s emphasis on the “the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.” Israelis and Arabs continue to nit-pick over semantics. The resolution is short and perfectly succinct (reiterated again in res. 338).

    I should know better than to post on a site called Zionist.com, but I couldn’t resist. The sooner the U.S. realizes that it’s close relationship with the right-wing leadership in Israel is hurting our national image rather than bolstering it, and the sooner we force the Palestinians and Israelis into a true partition ( how is a West Bank swiss-cheesed with illegal settlements a partition again? ) and give the Palestinians a true state, the sooner we (by we I mean Americans) can but this nightmare behind us.

    Also, the Israeli position that there must be a complete and sustained ceasefire before negitations can continue is an old red herring used as an excuse to continue illegal settlement building and creating “undeniable facts” on the ground. Someone a lot smarter than me said it perfectly… “It’s the solution that brings about peace, not the other way around.”

  • 50 ISupportPalestine // Apr 10, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    Amen Joseph

  • 51 Marsha Carol Watson // Apr 10, 2008 at 10:10 pm

    I am frustrated by the criticism of Pastor John Hagee. Evidently, those doing the criticism don’t know Hagee. I have known John Hagee since 1992….He is not trying to convert the Jewish People….He simply preaches and teaches from the Holy Bible. He is a Gentile….and a dear friend of the Jewish People and the Nation of Israel. He has NO hidden agenda!

    Hagee is catching a lot of “heat” right now….that tells me that he is on the right track. The Word of God says: We need to beware when all men speak well of us……God’s people do and always will have many adversaries. Hagee knows this and is accepting of this, because he realizes that this is a part of “walking the walk.”

    Hagee is not intimidated by anyone—-Hagee knows who he is…He is one of God’s servants who you can count on that will Never compromise. That is not his nature.

    I have great confidence in Pastor Hagee. After 16 years of close aquaintance, I know the heart of this man and his family. To have him love Israel and the Jewish People, is a special Blessing…..whether some realize this or not.

  • 52 The Insanity Of Zionism // Apr 11, 2008 at 12:48 am

    Lets see Marsha, you say he is not trying to convert the jewish person but then you say he is a friend of Israel. What world do you live in? Do you not know that unless they are preached to they cannot learn of the true Messiah, you knowm Jesus? As long as they reject Jesus Christ they are enemies of God. Its time to stop this insane Zionist crap and start sharing the Gospel of Christ with people who are going to hell!!!

  • 53 Joseph // Apr 11, 2008 at 8:53 am

    “As long as they reject Jesus Christ they are enemies of God. Its time to stop this insane Zionist crap and start sharing the Gospel of Christ with people who are going to hell!!!”

    Wow… I don’t know if you’re being satirical or not, but in case you aren’t…

    Enemies of God? You realise what the only difference between you and an Islamic jihadist is? You won’t back up your beliefs with an RPG.

    Let me let all of you in on a little secret… Jesus Christ was an apocaplyptic prophet. That’s right, just like you, he believed the world was coming to an end, and he explicitly says so. I’m paraphrasing him, but he basically says “the last of this generation shall not pass before the kingdom of God is on earth”. How much more plainly and clearly can you put it? And guess what… he was WRONG! We’re still here, 2000 years later.

    The whole bit about “turn the other cheek” and be kind and forgiving? That’s because he believed that one musn’t do anything to upset God in the last short stretch of time before he comes to judge, so be extra nice and obedient.

    And if you want proof of the interpretation above, look in the mirror! Constantly quoting revelations and talking about :

    “Call on Him while he is near, for today is the day of salvation. No man is sure of tomorrow.” — Matt.

    and

    “It’s time for these scales to come off as we are coming to the days just before the return of Messiah” — Al

    By believing that the end of the world is near, I trully believe that it’s the purist, most true form of Christianity one can follow… the closest path that Christ followed and the most aligned with his thinking as possible. The problem was that he got it wrong, and so have countless generations of apocalyptic Christians (like yourselves).

    No this wouldn’t normally piss me off, everyone’s entitled to their beliefs, but the thought absolutely guiles me that very intelligent people like yourselves (not patronising) would not act to improve this world we live in now, today, for the betterment of all humanity, rejecting extremism in ALL it’s forms, and directing your energies towards building a more peaceful and just world, breaking the cycles of violence that plague humanity in every corner of our planet, because of belief that

    So smart… such a waste.

  • 54 Joseph // Apr 11, 2008 at 8:56 am

    Sorry, I didn’t finish that last sentence… but you get the idea. I sincerely wish nothing but happiness and peace for all in this short time we have on this earth.

  • 55 The Insanity Of Zionism // Apr 11, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    Well, now I disagree with you completely concerning Jesus Christ, the Messiah. He is the way the truth and the life. You, Joseph, don’t understand the purpose and diety of Christ therefore you are lost in your sins just as much as any person who denies the Son of God. Sorry to be so blunt. Also, Zionism is not the way to go. It has displaced people on both sides of the issue and is from the pits of hell. Christians are being sucked into a false religion and are of the synagogue of the jews spoken of in Revelation.

  • 56 Matt // Apr 11, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    Marsha,

    I hope you are not including me in the “criticizing Hagee” department simply from my posts, because I clearly said I had no real idea about his views (the ones brought up on this thread) because I had not read his book. I merely made a few general remarks by way of observation.

    However, in your post you said “He is not trying to convert the Jewish People”

    I heard from the lips of a Jewish believer this very day that “the worst kind of antisemitism is to believe or teach that Jews do not need to hear about the life giving gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    I also recall Jesus saying “go ye therefore and make disciples of all nations”. Notice, Jesus did not say “all nations except the Jews”.

    I for one do not think it is “loving the Jews” to pretend that they do not need Jesus to be saved.

    Bless you.

  • 57 Matt // Apr 11, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    Mr. Insanity,

    “Its time to stop this insane Zionist crap and start sharing the Gospel of Christ with people who are going to hell!!!”

    Sir, there are many, many Christian Zionists who are actively engaged in sharing the gospel with the Jewish people.

    You should not make sweeping generalizations.

  • 58 The Insanity Of Zionism // Apr 11, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    Yeah, like who? The point is though that Christian Zionism is nothing more then a cult with a false message. I would rather they just kept their traps shut anyway and let true followers of Christ share the message of the Gospel.

  • 59 Al // Apr 12, 2008 at 1:32 am

    Marsha,

    It was not my intent to offend you with my words.
    I was simply bringing up something relevant to what Matt wrote back in comment #40. Matt brought up the fact that Mr. Hagee was meeting with senior Israeli officials. In lieu of what I know Mr. Hagee said about Yeshua not coming as the Jewish Messiah during His first coming, I thought it was worth mentioning.

    I stand by what I said. We should not be telling anyone, Jew or Gentile, that Yeshua was not at some point the Jewish Messiah or that He did come to present Himself as Messiah of Israel. As Matt correctly observed, the Jewish people had a distinct expectation about the coming Messiah. Most did not expect a suffering servant as portrayed in Isaiah 53, but rather the conquering King Who would rid Israel of its oppression by the Roman Empire.

    Ironically enough, even in the first century Judaism taught that there might be two Messiahs who would come. One would be called Messiah ben Yoseph who would suffer much like Joseph the son of Jacob who suffered at the hands of his brothers. The other would be called Messiah ben David, who would be a descendant of King David and rule on his throne as God promised David. This Messiah would establish the borders of Israel and fulfill the land promise given to Abraham.

    They could not see One individual fulfilling both through two separate comings.

    All this to say, Marsha, we should not go around and dissecting Yeshua’s ministry to both Israel and the world because of the passage of time between His two advents.

    That is my criticism of Mr. Hagee.

    I believe he is sincere when he says he supports Israel. But we need to be careful how we support Israel. We should tell them the truth of the gospel. That their Messiah came in fulfillment of the Torah and the prophets that spoke of Him. That He came to provide atonement for both Israel and the world, that whosover believes in Him would not perish but find eternal life. We should also tell them their expectation of the Son of David coming to rule and restore Israel according to the Torah and the prophets will also be fulfilled. The promises of the Land(Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), promises of a Prophet Who would both embody and declare the Torah from Zion(Moses) and promises of a King Whose kingdom will reach from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth(David).

    Blessing in Messiah Yeshua

  • 60 Marsha Carol Watson // Apr 12, 2008 at 7:54 am

    Perhaps I need to clarify myself. I am speaking personally on this…but at age 62, I have been around a long time and have learned a few good lessons.

    First of all: People watch our lives, and that tells them a lot about us. The desire of my heart is to be a blessing. Some I can help…some I cannot. As each of us lives our lives day by day, people are watching us. One picture IS worth a thousand words.

    I am a Christian–I am not trying to force Christianity down anyone’s throat. If a person observes me day in and day out, and somewhere “down life’s road” they see something that makes them want to know about “what makes me tick” and why I am such a happy person (even in trials) when they open the door and begin to ask me questions….then I will witness to them and share my life and what Jesus Christ has done for me===and He has done plenty!

    If you don’t believe He has done plenty for me…..read my book!!

    One Woman’s Quest for Truth
    Marsha Carol Watson

    http://www.onewomansquest.com

    John Hagee is what he is….a godly man, called to be a Light in a world filled with much darkness. I can assure you Hagee will not try to force anything down anyone’s throat……If you open up and talk to him, Hagee will tell you what God’s Word says, and how it relates to the human heart and the human need.

    I know it is the desire of each person who is really a Christian to be a “soul-winner.” Once a person had had a life-changing experience, and has experienced the peace that only God can give….believe me, it is so wonderful….you can’t help but want to share it.

    I am always happy to be able to share about the love of Jesus Christ. HE IS REAL. God did not create Hell for humanity….He created it for the devil and his demon spirits.

    We are free moral agents. God gives us a choice as to how we will live our lives….Based on our choices is where we will end up–

    Heaven or the flames of Hell

    We make the choice…and Choices have Consequences

    John Hagee’s deep and abiding love for the Nation of Israel and the Jewish People is a “God thing.” Hagee is purely and simply being the man God called him to be. He does not have to apologize to anyone for his words or actions….God keeps good records! Hagee’s records are with God. Find fault with Hagee if you like…it will not affect His love for Israel and the Jewish People….or His love for Jesus Christ, his Savior and Lord…..and mine.

  • 61 Marsha Carol Watson // Apr 12, 2008 at 8:04 am

    One More thing, please.

    For the past 16 years, I have heard Pastor John Hagee say over and over again that Jesus Christ was a Jewish Rabbi. And yes, I have read IN DEFENSE OF ISRAEL. Before you try to discuss it, please get a copy and read it…..then we will talk again.

  • 62 Matt // Apr 12, 2008 at 9:58 am

    Marsha,

    You sound like a very dear lady. You are correct that Mr. Hagee is ultimately responsible only to God for his ministry. He has to answer to his Master, not to me or any other servant of the Lord. However, please make sure that you read all of my recent posts to get a good understanding of what I was saying:

    Post#40: the question was simply about the huge conferences Hagee and others have in Israel and what impact they have on the Jewish community.

    In all of my following posts I clearly said I had no real idea about what Hagee meant (about Jesus as the Jewish Messiah) since I did not read the book. However, I have seen him, in the video which I posted a link to, say “Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah”. Since you have read the book perhaps you can provide those of who have not a clearer understanding of what he meant.

    Now, you are the one who said, “He is not trying to convert the Jewish People” so maybe you could explain that comment to us. Do you mean that Hagee is unconcerned with whether Jews hear the gospel of Jesus? Does that mean that physically blessing Israel (like the six million dollars he and his group recently donated) is more important than the spiritual blessing of sharing the gospel?

    Also, I am not sure I undertsand your repeated references to “forcing the gospel down people’s throats”. Is simply preaching the gospel “forcing” it on people? Now, I am not implying that Jews, or anyone else, must accept the gospel or we should not help them, not at all. Christians should love unconditionally. But is it not important that people hear the gospel?

    Paul said in Romans 10:4 “How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?” Then Paul goes on in verse 17 to say, “So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.”

    The context of this passage (Romans 9-11) is specifically talking about Jewish people. Loving them, showing them a godly life and “living the gospel” as it’s often called, is wonderful! But they will not believe, they will not have faith, unless they hear the word of Christ preached. And without that they are lost.

    I know several Jewish Christians in Israel who suffer severe hardship because of their faith. One pastor recently had his son nearly killed by a bomb discguised as a Purim package sent to their home. Many of these people lose their jobs when they become Christians. They are often poor and persecuted. How do you think they feel when they hear American Christians talk about love and brotherhood with Jews (who are not Christians), give them lots of money, and then say that they do not need to hear about Jesus?

    I am not saying that Hagee and other Chistians should stop blessing Israel. May it never be! But the greatest blessing Israel can recieve is the knowledge of Jesus. And we must not, by our words, belittle the sacrifice of our Jewish Christian brothers.

  • 63 Matt // Apr 12, 2008 at 10:07 am

    A final exhortation:

    Let all of us who are children of God come together and lift up our prayers for the people of Israel.

    • for the leadership of the country. To have wisdom to act with rightness, justice, and fairness for all of the citizens of the Land and to act in such a way as to provide security, freedom, and peace for those citizens.

    • for the Jewish Christian believers of Israel who face persecution, slander, and opposition as they live their lives and share their faith.

    *for the Arab Christians of Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. These believers often risk everything for Jesus. They are largely ignored by the western church, and are often severaly mistreated by other Palestinians, who target them as apostates and “Israeli spys”.

    • for Israel’s neighbors. That God would break down the stronghold of Islam in those nations and that the life giving, love bringing gospel of Jesus Christ would transform hearts, minds, and entire nations.

    *for the people of Israel to have open hearts and that they would receieve and acknowledge their Messiah as Lord.

    Can we agree on this?

    Bless you…

  • 64 Al // Apr 13, 2008 at 6:23 am

    To all the people who have a problem with Zionism, what is your definition of Zionism??

    Please explain why you have a problem with the Jewish people returning to the land of origin.

    Try to answer by giving actual history and not some bigoted, antisemitic nonsense.

    And Joseph, if you are going to criticize the Irgun, maybe you should mention why they attacked British and Arab targets in the first place.
    Like how the Arabs attacked Jews first while the British who were the occupying colonial power stood back and did nothing to discourage or prevent Arabs from attacking Jews. I do not personally condone Irgun’s tactics. However the Jews did not start this conflict. The Arabs were the ones who did not accept partition. This is a historical fact.

  • 65 Matt // Apr 13, 2008 at 10:13 pm

    Joseph,

    I will answer you one more time. I will also pass over some of the more obvious inaccuracies in your previous posts, such as Arabs living in Israel for the last 2,000 years (where did you come up with that wopper?) and address the heart of the matter.

    I have never claimed that Israel is entirely without fault. No governent is.

    I will also not attempt to convince you based on any biblical creed, as you are not a believer in the authority of the Bible.

    I simply affirm this: that Israel has a right to exist as a secure, independent, Jewish nation. This right was even granted to it by the United Nations, whom you seem so fond of. Do you at least affirm, leaving for the moment matters of borders aside, that this is true?

    If not then we really have nothing to talk about.

    If so, then perhaps we can come to something of an understanding.

    First, do you see that there is no real comparison between isolated illegal violent acts by the Irgun and Stern gang and Palestinian terrorism today? I say this because of the following: the actions of some Jewish defenders were their own. Israel had no standing army at the time and the early government was unable to direct everyone. Furthermore, following the war Ben Gurion assured that these gangs were disarmed. He refused to tolerate any armed militias roaming the new state acting on their own. Conversely, Palestinian Arabs have been murdering Jews, basically without let up, for sixty years. They have done so with the support and approval of Arab leadership. To justify Arab terrorism that goes on today you are comparing it to Jewish terrorism (in some cases, I do not concede the truth of all of your examples) that accured sixty years ago. This is an invalid comparison.

    Ask yourself these questions:

    Why were Arabs attacking Jewish civilians even before Israel declared independance in 1948?

    Why were Arabs attacking Jewish civilians between 1949 and 1967, before Israel “occupied” Gaza and the West Bank?

    Why are Gazan Arabs attacking Jewish civilians two years after Israel completely left the Strip?

    Why is Hezbollah attacking Jewish civilians 8 years after Israel left all of Lebanon?

    The answer is simple: they do not want ANY Jews in the Middle East. Do you agree with them?

    I suggest you read the following:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/the_expulsion_libel_1948_arab.html

    The author uses many Arab and European sources from during the years of and immidiately after the 47-49 war that confess that Arabs mostly left their homes in Israel voluntarily.

    Who really is to blame for the “refugees”?

    Again, what would Israel have to do for you to cease blaming them for the problems in the Middle East?

    I suspect your answer is that Israel should commit national suicide and cease to exist. I also suspect that you are an anti-semite troll who posts here simply to abuse Jews and their friends.

    Unless you prove me wrong I have nothing else to say to you.

  • 66 Joseph // Apr 16, 2008 at 8:58 am

    Sorry Matt, you got the wrong guy… you have to go back and read the posts pal, who said anything about Arabs living in Palestine for 2000 years?

    “…but I have to ask myself how someone who’s seen what ordinary Palestinians go through everyday in their struggle to survive in that diced up puzzle of a land that used to be the land they lived in for 2000 years…”

    Palestinians are, by definition, anyone whose lived in Palestine since Titus sacked Jerusalem in 66 A.D. When I say Palestinians I mean philistine, Arab, Jewish, Christian (of any descent), and any of the descendants of the hodge-podge of people who have lived in the area for, roughly, 2000 years.

    As far as me condoning Palestinian militant methods… again, look at what I actually said in two different posts:

    “About the Palestinian militants… ANY use of force against civilian population is inexcusable. Random rockets serve no purpose other than terrorize the civilians they’re aimed at, and push moderate Israelis farther to the right. They are just as wrong as the Israeli response to it.”

    “… can sit and judge a people for defending their right to live in it, however wrong their methods are.”

    There’s no doubt that Arabs did attack immigrant, and native, Jews in Palestine before 1948. I’m no defender of the reaction of Palestinians to the intent of the Lord Balfour declaration to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine. I can cite two examples, one where 133 Jews were massacred in 1929 and another in Hebron, 60 Jews killed, most from an old Jewish community, who where primarily anti-zionist (yes, many Jewish natives to Palestine were anti-Zionist). Terrorist tactics were used on both sides.

    As far as the expulsion of Palestinians goes, I did read a few of the links from the page you gave, and this about somes up all of the articles: “Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders’ calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle”. So at the very bare minimum, a “handful” were expelled (source doesn’t ever give a number), but also, most Palestinians fled because they were afraid for their lives… imagine that! Well, if you flee your home because you’re afraid of dying then you give up all rights to your home and property… right? Israel has steadfastly refused refugee right of return, you can’t deny that.

    Continued…

  • 67 Al // Apr 16, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Joseph #66,

    You are not the Joseph of post #48??

    -Al

  • 68 Joseph // Apr 16, 2008 at 7:16 pm

    Yes… I didn’t mean “you got the wrong guy” literally.

    I posted #67 as Joseph2 because the system kept saying that the comment I was posting was a duplicate, even though it wasn’t.

  • 69 Joseph // Apr 16, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    Oops, looks like my second post did get bounced… this is a continuation from post # 66…

    As far as Palestinian resistance to Jewish immigration and the legacy of the Balfour agreement, I think David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, said it best: “in our political argument abroad, we minimize the Arab opposition to us… let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. Politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside.” (In reference to a failed national revolt by Palestinian Arabs in 1936-9 he continues) The revolt “is an active resistance by the Palestinians to what they regard as a usurpation of their homeland by the Jews… Behind the terrorism is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self-sacrifice” (Flapan, Zionism and the Palestinians, pp. 141-2, citing a speech).

    You’re right that I don’t accept biblical claims to anything, and I don’t buy Muslims’ claims as Jerusalem as their sacred city… in fact I firmly believe in an absolute separation of church and state and have a general contempt for religion as a whole, because on the whole, it creates more problems than it solves.

    But YES, I believe Israel does have a right to exist. The way I see it is what’s done is done, and most modern Israelis are secular and want a permanent peace with all of their Arab neighbors, but a permanent peace is elusive because of belligerents on ALL sides.

    So again, I say that it’s in the best interest of the U.S. to forcefully go in and settle the argument once and for all. Again, it’s the solution that brings about the peace, not the other way around.

    Speaking of changing US policy towards, there’s a new lobbying group in Washington called J-Street which is the voice for moderate Jews in the U.S. who feel that policy towards Israeli-Palestinian crisis has been hijacked by the right-wing for too long.

    http://jstreet.org/about/about-us

    Also, again I refer to combatants for peace, an organization where former militants on both sides have come together and forsaken their former lives of militancy:

    http://www.combatantsforpeace.org/

  • 70 Matt // Apr 16, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    Jospeh,

    Thanks for the straight answer:

    “But YES, I believe Israel does have a right to exist.”

    But do you not see that this remark is imcompatible with this one:

    “Israel has steadfastly refused refugee right of return, you can’t deny that.”

    A “right of return” would mean the end of Israel, as it would quickly become the 23rd Arab State. Furthermore, there are almost no Palestinian refugees anyway. Refugee status is not passed down from generation to generation; at least, it never has been among any other group of people. 90% of todays “refugees” have never even stepped foot into Israel, and have no right or claim to land there.

    The original mandate of Palestine was divided: over 80% today belongs to Palestinians (Jordan is overwhelmingly Palestinian).

    Israel has repeatedly offered the PA as much as 96% of all of their demands for Gaza and the WB. Each offer has been met with terrorism.

    Israel supplies the food, electricity, gas, and nearly every other commodity to the Palestinians, who regularly respond with more terrorism.

    I wonder, do you loudly cry out on behalf of the the 850,000 Jewish refugees who were expelled from their homes, in which they had lived for hundreds of years, all across the Middle East after 1948? The land, money, and goods they lost was recently estimated to be well over 100 billion dollars and land more than 12 times the the size of the entire state of Israel.

    As you said, what is done is done. Let’s call it even (though it is not, Jewish refugees lost far more). Let the Arabs who stole the Jewish land and property compensate the Palestinians.

    One final word, and this is indeed the last. Unlike you, I have spent a lot of time in Israel and the territories. I have been shaken down by IDF troops with M-16s in the West Bank for walking the streets during curfew. I have ridden Egged buses during the very days when suicide bombers were detonating themselves. I have many Jewish Israeli and Palestinian friends. I will tell you this plainly: MOST Palestinian do not want peace. They want to drive the Jews completly out of the Middle East. Also, if they were given their own State right now it would be an absolute hell for any Palestinian who was not an Islamic hardliner.

    You can qoute whatever speeches you like, but you really have no clue my friend.

    Since you seem so proud of your Godless secularism it is a wonder that you are so in favor of a Palestinian state, seeing as how Israel is the only secular democracy in the Middle East. “Palestine” would be a terrorist state ran by Islamic clerics. For the sake of the Israelis AND the Palestinians I cannot support that.

  • 71 Joseph // Apr 17, 2008 at 7:33 pm

    Matt,

    You’re right that I can’t offer any personal experience of having lived in Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza. And I’m not arguing that there are not a lot of pissed off Palestinians. What I can argue is that I’ve read plenty of articles from journalists reporting from Gaza and West Bank and personal accounts from people who live in Gaza. The article below is just one of them.

    We can talk about dispossed Jews from 1948 if you like, but if we open up that topic, then I insist that every time the Holocaust is spoken, that you mention the 1.0-1.5 million Armenians that were systematically slaughtered by the last of the Ottoman Turks during the first world war as part of the first holocaust of the 20th century. The same holocaust which arguably instructed Hitler about how to carry out the second, and worse, version. Suffering is univeral throughout history, and we have to limit the scope of the discussion somewhere.

    But returning to the subject of Palestinian refugees, let me see if I understand your logic correctly. If I want to settle somewhere that is already occupied, I just have to make sure that I can hold a person’s property until the original owner is dead, then it’s mine? You mean to say that property deeds and titles cannot be inherited?

    You are absolutely correct that allowing refugees (or their descdendants) back and giving them their original property is not an option for Israel. Quite frankly I don’t think it’s a good idea either. What I do think is a good idea is that refugees are either compensated (by mutual agreement) or given property somewhere else within the internationally recognised borders of Palestine, not Israel. What’s so hard about that?

    I’d have to say that you’re wrong about Israel giving the fuel, food, and supplies to Gaza. I would replace the word “giving” with “controls”. You see that is a more accurate description, since Israel can, whenever they want, cut off the fuel, food, and supplies that OTHER countries are trying to pipe into Gaza and West Bank. Just recently (last few days) after another typical cycle of attack and retribution by militants and IDF, Israel announced that it would “allow” fuel to continue to be piped into the power plant in Gaza. What a lovely gesture. All Gazans and West Bankers live by the wim of Israel, and that’s not a way to live, so I can understand their anger and frustration, but again, attacking CIVILIANS is not excuseable, by EITHER side (which again, Israel seems to be a lot more effective at).

    Continued…

  • 72 Joseph // Apr 17, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    I didn’t quote Ben-Gurion to demonstrate Israel’s guilt, it’s just to show that Israelis realize what the effect of establishing a nation in previously inhabitied land is. So lets just settle it, once and for all!

    It’s seems that you’ve made up your mind about the inherent nature of Palestinians. My opinion is that, given time , a Palestinian state and the dignity that goes along with it will yield more peaceful relations, in the long run. It will also, in my opinion, help reduce anti-Israeli and anti-semitic rhetoric throughout the middle east. In case it doesn’t, I’m not worried about Israel’s ability to defend itself, the Palestinians will have made their own bed at that point, but they need an opportunity to make that choice, from their own state, outside of the day-to-day struggle and strife of the current occupation.

    Finally, I agree Islam has a fundamental problem and is in a identity crisis with respect to what it’s role is precisely in modern states with progressive globalized economies. I do think there is a reactionary movement in Islam as a whole which is unhealthy, but I also believe the true source of the anger and bad judgements and rhetoric (like Ahmadinejad) comes from, and is aimed at, poor and poorly educated masses. Growth of a middle class across the middle east will go a lot farther than bombs and sanctions.

    So look, we can go back and forth all day long about the situation in the middle east, but if our underlying assumptions about the nature of Palestinians are different, then there is no point to this discussion. Either they are human beings who deserve dignity and compensation, or they aren’t. Do Palestinians suffer for the actions of their misguided militants? You bet your ass they do.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/16/AR2008041602899.html?hpid%3Dopinionsbox1&sub=AR

  • 73 Joseph // Apr 19, 2008 at 2:24 am

    One more article about the conduct of IDF soldiers with respect to Palestinians, as told by the soldiers themselves. Some nice testimonial about how hardline Jewish settlers treat them too.

    I’m glad that more people are coming forward, hopefully honesty like this helps to bring about a negotiated peace and withdrawal more quickly.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

  • 74 Chaya // Apr 22, 2008 at 6:41 am

    There will be no peace until Sar ShalomThe Messiah brings it on his return. Come soon Lord Y’SHUA.

  • 75 Al // Apr 22, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Joseph,

    You speak of dignity of the “Palestinians”???
    How can you associate that word with a society and culture that promotes suicide bombings as the act of a martyr? A society that teaches this to young children???

    Considering their pattern of behavior, they should be grateful that Israel has not simply launched an all out invasion of Gaza.

    Tell me which other nation on face of the earth besides Israel would tolerate artillery being launched against them from a weaker opponent?? If Israel is guilty of anything, it is for allowing this situation to continue instead of putting an end to it once and for all.

    If the “Palestinians” are so helpless, where do they continue to come up with all the artillery they keep lobbing at Israel??

    I wonder how much food, fuel and other non-combat supplies Iran, Syria, Egypt, et al have actually sent them to alleviate their situation?

    You claim that the “Palestinians” are under siege??
    Why would Israel give them ANY supplies at all if they were actually under siege?? When you have an enemy under siege, it is to get them to surrender or to destroy them. You would deprive them of any advantage whatsoever!! If Israel’s intention were either of these, don’t you think they would done this a long time ago??

    Matt is absolutely correct. You just don’t have a clue.

  • 76 Matt // Apr 22, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    Al,

    I think it is probably best to let Joseph rant and rave unanswered.

    You can go ahead and point out the complete lunacy of condemning Israel for putting Gaza “under siege” when the only food, fuel, and medical supplies that are sent to Gaza are from Israel.

    You can point out that Egypt sends them nothing, that they are quickly trying to build a wall (which, incidentally, no one protests and which, unbelievably, President Bush and Congress promised to give 23 million in US tax dollars to build), and that they threatened to “shoot” and “break the legs of” any Palestinian that attempts to breach the border.

    But I doubt he will listen.

    You can point out that an estimated 84% of Palestinians approved of the murder of 8 yeshiva students recently in Jerusalem by an Israeli Arab.

    You can point out that an estimated 64% of Gazans support suicide bombings.

    You can point out that Hamas and the PLO still officially deny that Israel does not have a right to exist at all and that even a return to the 1967 borders is only a step towards driving the Jews completely out.

    But I doubt he will listen.

    In contrast, you can point out that Israel continues to supply Gaza with fuel, even after Gaza terrorists attacked the Nahal OZ fuel depot and killed two Israeli civilians.

    You can point out that Israel continues to supply Gaza with food, medicine, clothing, etc. even after dozens of Gaza terrorists attacked the very convoys sent to supply Gaza as they passed through the Kerem Shalom crossing.

    You can point out that rather than cheering when Arab children die, as the above mentioned 84% of Palestinians did after the yeshiva slaughter of Jewish youths, Israel brings Arab and Kurdish babies from Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, and even as far away as Iraq to Tel Aviv to receive life saving heart and cancer surgeries.

    You can point all of this out, but I doubt he will listen.

    I doubt he will listen because some people, and Joseph appears to be one of them, always turn a blind eye to the numerous atrocities and human rights violations committed be Palestinians and other Middle Eastern Muslims, while gleefully seizing upon every misdeed and mistake, both real and fabricated, that Israel commits.

    They never speak out against the government ran newspapers in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Gaza and the West Bank that report that Jews murder Arab children and use their blood in their Passover meals.

    They never praise Israel for her efforts to save Arab children’s’ lives through surgery and medicine.

    At best, they will give some general platitude about how killing civilians is wrong even when Arabs do it (as if they should be praised for condemning so universally regarded as wrong be any decent person) and then launch into an anti-Israel diatribe.

    No, they live in a world where right is wrong and evil is good, and there is often very little that you or I can do to change their thoughts.

  • 77 Al // Apr 23, 2008 at 3:29 am

    Matt,

    You are right.

    I probably am wasting my time trying to convince Joseph of the error of his ways. He tries to come off as being even handed but he fails miserably. If you visit his website, you will see what I mean. See my comment #35 for how I really view Joseph and his friends. He is deceived like most of the world is deceived regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict. That Israel is the aggressor and the poor Arabs are the victims.

    I know there are Arabs that are victims in this insane situation. But the real bullies are not the Israelis. The real bullies are the governments of the world that profit from the blood of innocent people. Iran and Syria sit back and laugh while Gazan Arabs that they goaded into attacking Israel pay for their folly after launching attacks on Israel. Most nations worldwide condemn Israel simply because they fear the financial repercussions of speaking too harshly against the oil rich Arab/Muslim nations.

    All you have to do is look at how many times Israel is condemned in the UN General Assembly while groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran are applauded.

    You are right. I doubt he will listen. But hopefully others who read what we write will realize what’s really going on… and why.

  • 78 yeah // Apr 28, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    zeitgeistmovie dot com if you dare…

  • 79 Joseph // Apr 29, 2008 at 2:56 am

    Funny, nothing mentioned about the Independent’s artical on Israeli soldiers’ and Zionist settlers treatment of Palestinians.

    If I was a Palestinian living under the boot of the IDF and wack-job settlers I wouldn’t care about the deaths of some yeshiva students either.

    I don’t have a clue? How about this clue: Zionists created a country out of a land which was settled by other people. They knew the price they’d have to pay.

    I’ll leave you nutties to your apocalyptic delusions… good luck with that.

  • 80 Ben // Apr 29, 2008 at 7:26 am

    Well… I have read all the posts in this thread and I amazed that Joseph is thinking the way he does. But then again, I am not surprised.

    To all, we simply need to move on and continue to pray for all the people in Israel. May the Lord bless her and protect her.

    We also need to pray for Joseph. He is looking at things differently than we do and he is deluded into thinking that Israel is at fault. Amazing. I guess people will believe the lie when it is shown to him in distorted ways. Sorry Joseph but you are clearly wrong.

  • 81 Julian -in Australia // May 1, 2008 at 6:00 am

    I wish Israel a Happy birthday [60] and may it leave till eternity as a country!!! -Gen 17:8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an [key words]everlasting possession [key words]; and I will be their God.”

    -For the Love of Zion

  • 82 FollowerofChrist // May 9, 2008 at 1:28 pm

    Some Facts you Zionists need to chew on:

    The idea that because Israel is of the flesh of Abraham that there is still a promise that remains to be given them, fails to consider that Jesus has already received the promise first given to Abraham. And because Jesus is alive, He has passed it on to no one else, unlike was done by Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, etc. Rather we partake of HIS inheritance because He shares it with us and we can have it no other way. The promise did not go around Jesus and then continue on to the unfaithful seed of Abraham.

    (Mark 12:7-11 KJV) But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. {8} And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. {9} What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. {10} And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: {11} This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    (Luke 20:16-19 KJV) … He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. {17} And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? {18} Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. {19} And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

    (Col 1:12 KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    (Col 3:23-25 KJV) And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    (Isa 65:9 KJV) And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

    (Gal 3:16 KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    (Heb 3:5-6 KJV) And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; {6} But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    It is the faithful Son who holds the promise and gives it to whomsoever HE wills! Israel despite what name they call themselves by or whose blood is in their veins, is without any hope – for the Father is not with them.

    (Mat 11:27 KJV

  • 83 FollowerofChrist // May 9, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    Continued:

    (Mat 11:27 KJV) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    (1 John 2:23 KJV) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

    (2 John 1:9 KJV) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    (John 8:24 KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    To anticipate a different fulfillment other than that of Christ will send you scurrying down the wrong path

  • 84 Matt // May 9, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    FollowerofChrist,

    I see by your scripture references that you are actually quote confused about “Christian Zionists”.

    First, Christian Zionism is not entirely equivalent to what is generally known as a dispensational (itself a somewhat vague term) understanding of the prophecies concerning Israel. Simply put, such Christians believe in a literal understanding of ALL biblical passages, including prophecy, unless the literary or grammatical context of the passage demands otherwise (such as with obvious metaphors, similes, etc.) I believe that this is the most logical and reasonable hermeneutic to apply to scripture, and is the one most often adhered to by both the ancient Israelites and the earliest church, prior to the influence of Greek philosophy and thought that infiltrated the church when it became predominately gentile. Now, most “Zionists” adhere to some form of this interpretative paradigm, though perhaps not all. Also, there are many Christians who would agree with such a biblical hermeneutic but who are not “Zionists” because, though they see the rebirth of Israel as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy they view Zionism as chiefly being a secular nationalist movement that, while likely being the tool God has used to return Jews to Israel, is none the less nothing more than a godless political philosophy. You need to clarify which group you are addressing.

    So, are you seeking to challenge a literal biblical hermeneutic, in support of an allegorical or some other method, or are you trying to challenge some Christians’ support of a particular political movement?

    Please clarify.

    Second, you seem to have confused traditional Christian doctrines that teach that God has an eternal covenant with Israel (physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac) with some people who claim that such a covenant includes some form of spiritual salvation outside of the atoning work of Jesus (I make reference to your of verses in your second post).

    You will probably find that very few people on this site, indeed, very few “Christian Zionists” at all, would say that Jews are saved apart form Jesus. They would almost without exception agree that “there is no other name under heaven by which men are saved” than the name of Jesus.

    So, very briefly, as there is not room for anything exhaustive here, I will lay out my understanding of the issue of Israel for you.

    In Genesis 15 the covenant between God and Abram is spelled out. It is three fold, 1) a relationship between the two, “Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you” (v1), 2) a nation or descendents, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” (v5), and 3) land, “I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it.” (v7).

  • 85 Matt // May 9, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Continued..

    In verses 9-16 the Lord provided Abram with a sign to mark the covenant. Thus Abram slaughtered the animals and laid them out. Now, in the ancient Near East this form of ritual was a common aspect in Suzerainty treaties. Basically, one nation would pledge allegiance to a stronger nation. In return, the stronger nation would pledge certain privileges and protections to the weaker. To sort of “seal the deal” they would slaughter some animals and the two kings would both walk between the parallel lines of dead animals, thus signifying their commitment to keep their end of the bargain.

    You notice in the Genesis account, however, that only God passed through the animals. The meaning is clear: the responsibility to keep the covenant rested with God alone. The failure of Abram (or his descendents) to abide by the covenant in no way negated the promises of God.

    Genesis 17:7 further states, “”I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.” The word “everlasting” is the key point I wish to emphasize. It is not for a time only (i.e. until they sin or until the Messiah comes, at which there is a new plan).

    Now, obviously, some components of the promise were conditional (like the fruitfulness of the land, protection from Israel’s enemies, etc.) and history and the Bible show the dreadful consequences of Israel’s failure to keep the covenant. However, the heart of God’s promise, a relationship between Israel and Him, the preservation of the people of Israel, and the ongoing ownership of the land, all remain “everlasting”.

    You can see another articulation of this in Isaiah 60:21 in a prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel (with my notes bracketed):

    “Then all your people [“people” i.e. descendents] {will be} righteous [salvation i.e. relationship with God]; They will possess the land forever [promise of the land], The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified [and this is purpose of it all—God’s glory]”.

    Of course, all of these promises do find their fulfillment in Jesus. It is the coming of the Messiah, the Son of David, which makes an eternal relationship with God possible for Israel (and indeed, all people). That is also the primary focus of the New Testament—salvation. But that does not negate the other two components of the promise to the physical children of Abraham—descendants and land.

    If you doubt this then I simply point to the evidence: the Jews, as a recognizable, unique, ethnic people group still exist, something that cannot be said of any similar people group from antiquity. Furthermore, after nearly 2,000 years the Jews are once again dwelling in the land given to Abraham. Both realities are statistical impossibilities. Yet here they are.

  • 86 Matt // May 9, 2008 at 10:53 pm

    Of course, the New Testament does speak some on this issue. In Luke 24:45 we are told “Then He [Jesus] opened their [disciples] minds to understand the scriptures”. Surely, if all of the prophecies concerning the future restoration of Israel are meant to be understood in only a spiritual or symbolic sense then the disciples would have now known, since Jesus “opened their minds” to those very scriptures, wouldn’t they?

    But we find in Acts 1:6 the disciples asking “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”

    Obviously, the disciples were still expecting a literal, physical kingdom of Israel with Jesus, the Messiah, as the king (since He would be the one to “restore” it). What was Jesus’ response? He does not say they are wrong, He simply says “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority”. His point is clear: He is going to restore the kingdom of Israel, but it is not the job of Christians to know when or even how. He then goes on to tell them (and all Christians) what their job is, “but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth”.

    So for the next 19 or so centuries bible believing Christians have set about the job of taking the gospel of Christ to the “remotest parts of the earth” and left the responsibility of restoring Israel to God. However, in our days we have the privilege of seeing God beginning to just that and we are excited about it!

    Again, the primary focus for God has always been to see people restored to relationship with Him and make His name glorified. His ultimate goal in restoring Israel to the land is that they may come know His son Jesus:

    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn”- Zechariah 12:10

    So that they will be saved:

    “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
    and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
    Romans 11:25-26

  • 87 Matt // May 9, 2008 at 10:53 pm

    conclusion:

    I am excited to see this coming to pass within my lifetime. Paul goes on to say in Romans 11:29 “for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (he is still talking about Israel as the chosen people of God). Today I see the evidence that God has not revoked His promise to Israel and it strengthens my faith that He will no revoke His promises to His Church. I am excited because the Word of the Lord is coming to pass, and I know that the coming of the Lord is very likely near.

    With the early church my heart cries out… Maranatha!

  • 88 FollowerofChrist // May 10, 2008 at 1:10 am

    Matt, you quoted Paul saying:
    So that they will be saved:

    “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
    and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
    Romans 11:25-26

    It is not that Israel was partially hardened but that a part of israel was hardened. It was not that the hardening will be taken away once the fullness of the gentiles has come in but that the fullness is the gentiles coming to faith and not in calculation by numbers. Therefore all Israel is that which includes both Gentiles and Jews and is clarified prior by the fact that now Jew and Gentile are on the vine. For not all who are Israel are not of Israel

  • 89 Matt // May 10, 2008 at 6:46 am

    FollowerofChrist,

    You have no justification whatsoever for making the interpretative conclusion you just made.

    It appears that you do not ascribe to a literal bible hermeneutic, as I explained previously. I assert again that such a method of interpreting scripture is not only the most reasonable but is also that method followed by ancient Israel, the apostles, and the early Church.

    It was with men like Origen, a non-Jewish man who was more greatly influenced by Greek philosophy than he was Old Testament theology, that allegorical interpretation became dominant.

    It is astounding to me that a Christian can an assert belief in the hundreds of prophecies concerning Christ’s first coming that were fulfilled literally, and then suppose the prophecies concerning His second coming are all figurative or only spiritual in nature. It is similarly astounding that these same people always believe in the literal punishment and judgment of Israel, but deny any literal meaning of the eternal promises of relationship, descendents, and land that God made the physical children of Israel.

    I simply say again that any interpretative method which leads to such inconsistent beliefs (not to mention thousands of years of often violent ant-Semitism) is foolish and ought to be discarded. I encourage you to read the Bible the way the ancient Israelites, the apostles, and the earliest Church did.

    Interpreting the bible in a symbolic or allegorical way began with the pride of the Greek world, who thought much of the Old Testament was too low or unsophisticated for the Greeks. It is the same today. A simple Christian will read God’s word and believe what it says. Christian “academics” are often not satisfied with the plain truth, and will attempt to construct some complex allegorical meaning from the Bible. Prideful people who want to think that they are “somebody” gleefully follow along behind them.

    Notice that in Romans 11 Paul says his teaching is so that “they may not become wise in their own estimation”. I would suggest that his warning remains the same today for anyone who would distort the plain literal meaning of scripture and attempt to make it say something that it does not.

    Blessings,
    Matt

  • 90 FollowerofChrist // May 10, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    No, his warning is not the same for today because those have already died out and today there is not real Jew. All Jews today are products of conversion. The bloodline is so diluted that no one can claim to be a descendent of Abraham. And this is the point of it all because since there is no jew or gentile in the world as far as when it counts then dirt is no longer the subject. Savation is and this is through the new and not the old.

  • 91 FollowerofChrist // May 10, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    Who is a Jew? One who is circumcised (inwardly) in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. Notice it doesn’t say, because they are a physical descendent of Abraham. The barrier of Jews and Gentiles was broken at the cross. The prophecies foretelling of Gods salvation plan included the Gentiles, so why are we to believe their is a separation between Israel and the Church (gentiles)? When both Jew and Gentile are all united in Christ by faith..??

  • 92 Al // May 11, 2008 at 4:02 am

    Dear “Follower of Christ”,

    In post #90, you state that there is not a real Jew?
    Let me ask you this and consider carefully before responding.
    Yeshua (Jesus): Is He still Jewish, not only while He lived on earth, but after ascending into heaven? Will He be considered Jewish after He returns to earth to rule and reign from Jerusalem?

    Al

  • 93 FollowerofChrist // May 11, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Jesus is the embodiment of who a Jew is. What does the Bible teach us who a Jew is:

    Romans 2:27-29

    27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

    But understand this perfectly if you can.

    1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

    Now, you tell me-is Christ now and forever the description of an outward appearing Jew or the inner?

  • 94 FollowerofChrist // May 11, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    Through the new covenant is the only way that Judah and Israel were joined back as one people as they idividually are baptized into Christ, who legally became the head of the tribe of Judah, the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

    Yes, the tribe of Judah continues today but only through Christ. And you and I and all who are in Christ today can say with all confidence and assurance, “We have descended from the tribe of Judah!”

  • 95 Matt // May 11, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    Mr. FOC,
    “The bloodline [Jewish] is so diluted that no one can claim to be a descendent of Abraham.”

    This is completely inaccurate. Modern genetics prove conclusively that people claiming to be Jews today, whether of European or Middle Eastern/N. African descent, are all very closely related. In fact, many recent studies have shown that their closest known relatives are in fact the Kurds, proving that the Jewish ethnic group originates in the region of ancient Mesopotamia. Of course, no one can “prove”, apart from the Bible, that Abraham existed at all, so Jews in that sense cannot “prove” they are his descendents, but there is no question that the Jewish people of today remain a single ethnic group, with very little outside genetic influence, that originated in the Middle East. I ask you, do you think that God, who created DNA, is somehow unable to distinguish among people?

    Furthermore, the word of God declares:

    “Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:

    “If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares the LORD, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.” Jeremiah 31:35-36

    The last time I checked the fixed order of the sun, moon, and stars continues, as does the people of Israel, the Jewish people.

    You also said:

    “so why are we to believe their is a separation between Israel and the Church (gentiles)? When both Jew and Gentile are all united in Christ by faith..??”

    No one here is arguing that there is a separation between Jew and Gentile in Christ in terms of quality, prestige, or their ultimate standing with God. However, remember that in Galatians 3:28, right after Paul says “there is neither Jew nor Greek [gentile]” he also says “there is neither male nor female”. I ask you, are you married? If so, what is your spouse? If you are a male then assume you are married to a female! How can that be? Obviously, there is no distinction between male and female with respect to value or salvation, but they remain different in terms of gender identity. Similarly, Jews are no more favored in the family of God than are gentiles, yet they remain Jews.

    Paul asks the question in Romans 11:1 “God has not rejected His people, has He?” He is not talking about the Church (which would be nonsensical), he is talking about Israel. Paul’s answer is “May it never be!” His reason for this answer is two fold: 1) God has preserved a remnant of Jews who have believed in Jesus (including Paul), and 2) God intends to save many more of them in the future. Paul gives a lengthy explanation, using the imagery of branches being broken off (v17), and then says that the broken branches will be grafted back in (v24).

  • 96 Matt // May 11, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    continued…

    The image of the olive tree is not that complex. 1) some branches (Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah) are broken off, 2) some branches are grafted in (gentiles who do believe in Jesus) and 3) some branches are never broken off (Jews who do believe in Jesus—the remnant). At some future point, God will regraft the natural branches (Jews who have not believed in Jesus) back into the olive tree. This will occur when “all of Israel will be saved” at the time, as I quoted from Zechariah earlier, when they see the Messiah returning and mourn.

    I really cannot understand your confusion on the matter unless you simply do not interpret scripture literally or unless you have some latent antagonism towards the Jewish people. Twice in Romans 11 (18, 25) Paul warns his gentile audience to not be arrogant and prideful regarding their salvation and God’s plans for the Jewish people.

    I urge you to be careful of the same.

  • 97 FollowerofChrist // May 11, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    Of course they are closely related but how does that prove your point? It is documented that eastern European Jews are actually converted people to Judaism. You are the one who needs to be careful. Can you answer this question? Is blood relationship to Abraham required to be a descendant of Abraham? Can one be converted to judaism and then qualify as a descendant of Abraham? How many sons did Abraham have in all? Why was only one choosen as a true descendant?
    Answer any one of those questions and see how that lines up with NT teaching.

  • 98 FollowerofChrist // May 11, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    Ahh so the antisemitism accusation has finally made it to the surface from you. The racist is the one who takes from the true Israel and gives to the carnal.

  • 99 FollowerofChrist // May 11, 2008 at 5:00 pm

    Matt, you said:
    [quote]Paul asks the question in Romans 11:1 “God has not rejected His people, has He?” He is not talking about the Church (which would be nonsensical), he is talking about Israel. Paul’s answer is “May it never be!” His reason for this answer is two fold: 1) God has preserved a remnant of Jews who have believed in Jesus (including Paul), and 2) God intends to save many more of them in the future. Paul gives a lengthy explanation, using the imagery of branches being broken off (v17), and then says that the broken branches will be grafted back in (v24).
    [/quote]

    Paul goes into great detail to show who the remnant is and he does so by including the gentiles. He says that he himself is proof of that remnant so by that proof showing that not all of Israel has been cast away. This of course implies many have . In the first century it was easy to determine a Jew based on the temple and thier religious observances of the temple. The temple is gone and for a very good Matthew 24 reason. The first century Jews who were of the natural branch are also gone. Now and forever there are no more natural branches for all must be grafted in. You will argue all you want against this but your arguement is with Christ and His New Covenant.

  • 100 Matt // May 11, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    FOC,

    You answered my question for me.

    Thanks.

  • 101 FollowerofChrist // May 11, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    And you for mine. Time will surely tell who is right concerning the Jew. So far you have been waiting past the biblical timeframe of a generation. Your apologists continue to deny the clear teaching of Scripture concerning these things. The nation of Israel will indeed give up land. The temple will never be rebuilt and the Messiah has already come. Wake up.

  • 102 FollowerofChrist // May 11, 2008 at 10:10 pm

    Check out a LITERAL translation of the NT, and you’ll be shocked at how translators have read their presuppositions into the text.

    Case in point: They have removed the meaning of “mello” from ANY passage dealing with the parousia, yet have left this verb in place in other contexts. It basically means, “about to be”. Now, why do you think they’ve done this?

    Matthew 16:27-28

    `For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. 28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.’
    Acts 24:14-16

    `And I confess this to thee, that, according to the way that they call a sect, so serve I the God of the fathers, believing all things that in the law and the prophets have been written, 15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; 16 and in this I do exercise myself, to have a conscience void of offence toward God and men always.
    Romans 4:23-24

    And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him, 24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned — to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,
    Romans 8:18-19

    For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us; 19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
    1 Peter 5:1-2

    Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker, 2 feed the flock of God that [is] among you, overseeing not constrainedly, but willingly, neither for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind
    The glory…the salvation…the coming of the Lord…all things ABOUT TO take place in that generation..which, of course we know, because Christ SAID THIS very thing to them when He said, “this generation will in no wise pass away before all these things have occurred”.

    When you put all the clues together..the time texts..the present tense of the resurrection terms…the promises from the Old Testament that put the parousia as being at the end of the old covenant, when the city would be destroyed…well, you’re really left with no choice but to believe all things written have been fulfilled. That’s not to say there’s not things BEING fulfilled now…Isaiah 65 IS FOREVER being fulfilled. The new heavens and new earth (new covenant) are FOREVER. The gospel will continue to forever go forth and “heal the nations”. The rivers of life (CHrist) get deeper and deeper and deeper, as Ezekiel reports!! It’s an amazing thing to be living in the “age to come”, something to which the first century church looked…and SOME OF THEM did not sleep (die) before that change took pl

  • 103 Al // May 12, 2008 at 12:38 am

    Dear FOC,

    Somehow it sounds you think Matt and I are saying that if you are not Jewish, then you are a second class citizen in God’s kingdom. That is not what we are saying.

    Matt has answered for himself so I will answer for myself. The physical distinction between Jews and Gentiles is there for a reason.
    God chose Israel because they the least of all peoples on the earth. Yet, despite this apparent handicap, He has demonstrated His power and glory through them to show the nations that He (Yahweh), the God of Israel is THE one true God. It is also this same God Who sends His Son, the Messiah Yeshua, into the world so that both Jew and Gentile can find salvation and atonement for sin.

    If there is no need to make a physical distinction, then why would Shaul (Paul) need to say in Romans 1:16-”For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Messiah; for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.” Paul is making a clear distinction between the two groups with the order given in terms of priority. The Jews received the word of God first in order to deliver this word to the Gentile world.

    Zechariah 8 talks about the restoration of the Jews in the land of their fathers. Verse 23 tells us that 10 Gentiles will take hold of the fringes or tzitzit of a Jew and say to him “we will go with you; for we have heard that God is with you. It says in the previous verse that the nations will seek the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem in order to pray to Him. This can only mean that Yeshua Himself is sought by the nations when He returns and rules on the throne of David during the Millenium.

    If there was no need for this distinction as you claim, then how can this scripture ever be fulfilled?? This cannot happen in a spiritual or allegorical way. It will happen in the natural or physical sense.

    I am aware that after the Millenium there will be a new heavens and earth. But before then, God will fulfill what He promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    And yes there will be a new temple and Israel will inherit the land as described in Ezekiel 40-48. This is not an allegory. It will be a physical reality here on earth for all to see. A allegory would not require the precise dimensions that Ezekiel describes regarding the last temple. Again this will happen during the Millenium because Revelation clearly says that in the NEW Jerusalem there will be no temple in it (Revelation 21:22).

    It confusion such as yours that is an obstacle to both the Jewish people finding their Messiah and the church or body of Messiah understanding who we are in relation to Israel.

  • 104 FollowerofChrist // May 12, 2008 at 2:19 am

    Al, I appreciate the tone of both you and Matt, but there are just some things you are misunderstanding about how things have been meant to be since Christ. For example, you gave Zech. 8 as some evidence that this is a roll that Gentiles will take in the future with regard to a Jew, but in fact it is another demonstration of the yoking together of both Jew and Gentile in the first century because of the Gospel of Christ. Likewise you use from the Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome to make a distinction that there is still a seperation. When Jesus was in His ministry and preparing the Apostles for their work, even as far as to Paul, this distinction was valid for indeed the Gospel did come through the Jews to the whole world. Jews were the first Christians and not until Paul did that Gospel reach the Gentiles in number. But for centuries past that time it was the completed Word of God through the Holy Spirit which brought in the harvest. Your reasoning is flawed to think that it is still the same today. No, gentlemen, I will stick to the theme of the Bible and that theme, manifested in Christ and the exact representation of God, is not all about Israel as many of you readers might suggest but is all about Christ and His Gospel. The Gospel that is still going forth inspite of so called Jews. The Gospel that knows no boundries, colors of skin nor race and heritage. Is God done with the Jews? By know means but they too may recieve Christ as Savior in the only one way available and many in fact have and do. But just as the Apostle Paul said: 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Its a sad fact today that many well meaning Christians refrain from this opportunity for fear of offending a person known as a Jew. They take so literal the word that they belive God will rescue them in the end all along not understanding that hundreds of these poor souls are dying each year outside of Christ. So allow me to cement my thoughts this way: Please keep loving these people as well as all people outside of Christ. Show no favoritism as God does not either. If it is your gift to evangelize then do so as led by the Spirit but do not for one minute believe that their end is sealed to come anyother way. You have been commissioned and you must do the work.

  • 105 Matt // May 12, 2008 at 7:38 am

    Al,

    I enjoyed your explanation. Thanks for sharing.

    Foc,

    As I mentioned earlier, we obviously have a very different approach to interpreting scripture. All “literalists” will somtimes interpret figuratively, and and “allegorists” will sometimes interpret literally. However, it is apparent that I tend more towards the literal, and you tend more towards the figurative.

    I appreciate your love for the lost and your willingness to share in a noninsulting way.

    However, I have two final observations to make. The first is that you seem to harbor a number of misconceptions about what we believe. This is demonstrated by such statements as, “is not all about Israel as many of you readers might suggest but is all about Christ and His Gospel” and “They take so literal the word that they belive God will rescue them in the end all along not understanding that hundreds of these poor souls are dying each year outside of Christ.”

    You may in fact find some people that phrase their thoughts in just such a manner, but I certainly do not. God’s relationship with Israel has always been about His glory being demonstrated, both to Israel and thru Israel to the nations. Also, you are completely correct that it is the mandate of Christians to share the gospel of Christ with all nations now, including the Jewish nation. Some Christians have indeed gone so far as to make Israel an idol, and many believe that Jews are saved apart form Christ.

    However, it is wrong for you to conclude that a literal understanding of the scriptures is to blame for this. I remind you that you were offended when I previously made mention that perhaps you harbored some antogonism towards Jews (which stops far short of actually calling you an antisemite, as you suggest). Nonetheless, thousands of Christians, harboring a belief in replacement theology and preterism, have used their convictions to persecute Jews. In fact, for centuries Churches in Europe had statues of two women, one tall, proud, and strong (the Church) and one broken and miserable (the Synagogue). These churches would often send their congregants out to persecute and kill local Jews with cries of “Christ Killer”.

    Now, I am sure you do not condone such actions, and I am equally sure that you would be offended if I made the connection between your theological beliefs and them, so I suggest the actions of some “Zionist” Christians that may be wrong in no way invalidate the truth of scripture.

    From what I have gleaned from your arguments it seems that you probably do not partake of communion (since the command was to do this until the Lord’s coming-which according to you has occured). You probably do not believe in, much less excercise, the gifts of the Spirit. You think the New Heavens and New Earth is the current disease, crime, and sin filled one we currently inhabit. And, worst of all, you most likely deny the physical resurection.

    I for one am appalled by such a faith, and will have no part in it.

  • 106 FollowerofChrist // May 12, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    There are not two peoples but one so who is replacing who? The New Heavens and New earth is the coming to faith of all peoples in the whosoever will (See Is 65). I believe the Bible. That makes me a biblist. Jesus told His disciples He would come before they finished going to all the cities of Israel. You tell me, now, who is the true literalist here?

  • 107 Matt // May 12, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    I’m not arrogant enough to suggest that I have a complete explanation for every verse in the Bible. All theological systems have holes in them, or at least certain difficulties, and mine is no different.

    Frankly, Matthew 10:23, the verse I assume you referenced above, is a difficult verse to understand. At its simplest meaning, the meaning I am usually inclined to take, it appears to support your belief that Jesus’ return has occured.

    However, scripture interprets scripture, and such a meaning for that verse is incompatabile with hundreds of other verses in both the OT and NT. Therefore, I am compelled by that context to seek a different meaning. It appears most likely that Jesus is refering to His coming judgement on Israel, mentioned a few verses earlier in v15, which occured within the lifetime of the Apostles.

    However, the weight of scripture, Matthew 24-25 (which addresses events of 70 AD and the last days) and parallel passages, I Thess. 4, I Cor. 15, and many others, make it clear that Jesus’ coming will be literal and will be tied to the physical resurrection of the saints.

    You take a couple of verses like this and use them to allegorize hundreds of other verses. You are not a literalist. You follow in the footsteps of Origen (who was later condemned as a heretic by church leaders) and others who, being uncomfortable with the Jewishness of the OT, discarded the centuries old method of literally interpeting the text and began to spiritualize everything they did not like.

    The result is that all of the judgements and curses pertaining to Israel are literal, but the blessings are all figurative and apply to the Church. This is both inconsistent and offensive, at least to me personally.

    As you did not challenge my earlier assumptions about some of the likely conclusions of your train of thought I can only conclude they were correct.

    So, you disobey the command to partake of the Lord’s supper because Jesus has already come.

    You disobey Paul’s command to seek all of the spiritual gifts because you believe they are not relevant anymore.

    You deny the physical resurrection of the saints, and in so doing must logically deny Christ’s physical resurrection, since He is the “first fruits” and we shall be raised in like manner to Him. Such a denial has been deemed heresy by the historic Christian Church since its earliest existence.

    Isaiah 65 does talk about gentiles coming to know God, in the first verse, but it also talks about Israel (v9) and Jerusalem (v19). These are not figurative terms for you and other gentiles. I think it is safe to say Isaiah took them literally, and the Apostles as well, when they were still looking for the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel.

    As I said before, the Christianity that you describe is something that I want not part of.

    I have made my case, I believe biblically, and I content myself with being judged accordingly by God and His mercy.

    I am finished with the topic.

  • 108 FollowerofChrist // May 12, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    I don’t follow in the footsteps of any person except Christ. But then you knew I would say that. I gave you one verse of over one hundred that will reflect the same 1st century fulfillment. However, these things take time to soak in when one may have grown up or have been specifically taught the Dispensational teaching. As Biblist it is my job not to read into Scripture anything. I allow the Bible to interpret itself. You were right to first see that the Matthew 10 account is saying exactly what Christ meant and in the same literal fashion all the inspired writers spoke concerning the subject of Christ’s return, yet your learning from teachers against a first century coming has clouded your good sense and you refrained from accepting the plain text. In time you may but I do know that many are.

  • 109 Julian -in Australia // May 16, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    They grab a punch of scriptures, rolled them up together, they add their own interpretation, and presto, they’ve made their own minds means what means what, They let their emotions high fly or get highly offended with flawed views of bunched up incoherent verses.

    Isaiah what did you EXACTLY say about the word of GOD? –

    (Isaiah 28:10)
    —PART 1 ——
    For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,

    —PART 2 ——
    Line upon line,
    line upon line,

    —PART 3 ——
    Here a little, there a little.”

    I write a letter to my two sons and tell them what they should do, giving them specific instructions. Now I say sons I want you to do this and that and when I come back, I will reward the one or any who follow my instructions.

    After coming back from my trip, one of my sons said Father I did everything you told me to do. In your letter you said do this and that, and thus I did, I followed everything you said word by word.

    Then my other son said the same thing to me, he said I actually interpreted your letter to mean this and that, and thus followed accordingly.

    What! I gave you specific instructions to follow!! When I mean a tree I mean a tree! UNLESS I tell you otherwise it means something else. No! You did not follow my instructions, you did what was right in your own eyes! You neither believe me nor have reverence nor fear of ME. How now can I use you for a special or noble purpose, you have proved to be unreliable and unworthy of me!

    I had two sons one Honored me and the other one dishonors me!

    ——— For the Love of Zion ———-

    Is it possible to add to this site bold, underlining, and/or colour text to our post? One could read over and over the same scriptural verse without picking up the keyword in it (the mind sees what is only prepared to see) this facility would make it easier for scriptural keywords to stand out.

  • 110 Matt // May 24, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    This is the best news I have heard lately:

    Norman Finkelstein deported from Israel

    “Controversial US academic held overnight at Ben Gurion airport for questioning, denied entry due to ‘security considerations’ “

    YNET News

  • 111 Al // May 26, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    Matt,

    For those of us who may not be familiar with Mr. Finkelstein, can you fill us in?

    I did a google search on him and he is described as a sympathizer of Hezbollah? Ironically, his parents were Holocaust survivors.

    Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

    Blessings in Yeshua,

    Al

  • 112 Matt // May 26, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    Al,

    Norman Finkelstein is an American academic and well known critic of Israel. He has built a career out of attacking supporters of Israel. He has claimed that Jews use the Holocaust-which he has questioned the extent of, claiming that the accepted narrative is exaggerated-as an excuse to extort money from people, particularly the State of Germany, and as leverage to “oppress” the Palestinians.

    He has often compared Israel to Nazis.

    As you mentioned, he is on record saying he feels “solidarity” with Hezbollah. You can view the video of the interview in which this comment was made here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ

    His credibility as a scholar has come into serious criticism over the years. He, along with Noam Chomsky, the well known MIT professor, has been accused of fraudulently accusing pro-Israel authors of plagiarism. In fact, the two went so far as to claim that Joan Peters, author of “From Time Immemorial” of fabricating the entire book. This accusation is taken to task and clearly refuted by Alan Dershowitz in his book “The Case for Peace”.

    You can read a nice summary of Finkelstein’s infamous career at: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=169&x_article=985

    He is a poor scholar. In fact, the above article is a couple of years old. Since it was written, Finkelstein has been denied tenure at DePaul University and no longer works there.

    It is a mark to Israel’s credit that it does not host such a dishonest hate monger.

  • 113 Matt // May 29, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    Another bit of information re Finkelstein. This from am interview with the J-Post:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1211872839843&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    “Finkelstein said Wednesday that he visited Lebanon six months ago where he was invited to lecture at a conference at the American University in Beirut. He also was in the country for a book tour following the publication of several of his articles in book form. Finkelstein said he was accompanied by his Arab publisher and representatives of Hizbullah as they toured the south of Lebanon.

    On his Web site, Finkelstein has a section called “In Defense of Hizbullah” which contains excerpts from an interview he gave in January to a Lebanese TV station. In the interview, the academic said he was “happy to meet the Hizbullah people because it is a point of view that is rarely heard in the US.”

    Finkelstein said he is not “dogmatic or fanatic” and believes every country has the right to restrict entry, but said he does not agree with the criteria. “Just as I would oppose the US not allowing people to enter due to ideological beliefs, I would consistently oppose them in Israel,” said Finkelstein who denies that he poses any threat to Israel. “

    Hezbollah is a “point of view that is rarely heard in the US”. What point of view is that, exactly?

    Hassan Nasrallah:”Israel is our enemy. This is an aggressive, illegal, and illegitimate entity, which has no future in our land. Its destiny is manifested in our motto: ‘Death to Israel.’”

    Hassan Nasrallah: “This American administration is an enemy. Our motto, which we are not afraid to repeat year after year, is: ‘Death to America.’

    http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP86705

    Gee, Mr. Finkelstein, thanks for sharing that lovely viewpoint. I am sure most Americans can hardly wait to here one more bigot chanting “death to America”.

    “Just as I would oppose the US not allowing people to enter due to ideological beliefs”

    Maybe Mr. Finkelstein is confused, but since he holds advanced degrees and fancies himself an academic I would assume that he realizes that “ideologies” never stay solely in the realm of theory. When possible, people put their ideologies into practice.

    If a person wishes to enter the United States and has vocalized their ideological belief that America should be destroyed, and they have a record of using whatever means they posses to further this goal (lying about America, vocally supporting anti-American terrorists, disseminating propaganda) then American not only have the right to block their entry, they in fact have a duty to the citizens of America to do so.

    The same holds true for Israel. Finkelstein is not an Israeli, and Israel owes him nothing. Being admitted to the State of Israel is a privilege, not a right. And his vocal Israel hatred has sacrificed whatever goodwill he may have hoped to receive.

  • 114 Isaiah53 // Jun 11, 2008 at 1:51 am

    LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.

    The watchman of Israel niether slumbers nor sleeps.

    Peace to Jerusalem.

  • 115 visitor // Jul 19, 2008 at 12:46 am

    Obviously this blog is no longer updated.

  • 116 Fern Sidman // Jul 28, 2008 at 12:02 am

    REPORT FROM WASHINGTON: CUFI SUMMIT ATTRACTS RECORD NUMBERS

    Calls for unwavering support of Israel; condemns Iranian nuclear threat

    BY: FERN SIDMAN

    “For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet, till her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch. (Isaiah 62:1)

    The electricity in the air was palpable in the nation’s capitol as these words from the prophet Isaiah served as the battle cry for a record number of over 7,000 Christian supporters of Israel who gathered on July 20-23 to attend the third annual Washington Summit of the Christians United For Israel organization at the Washington, DC Convention Center. Founded in February of 2006 by Pastor John Hagee, Senior Pastor of The Cornerstone Church of San Antonio, Texas and President and CEO of John Hagee Ministries, Christians United For Israel represents the premiere Christian evangelical national grassroots movement focused on the support of Israel. Having called upon Christian leaders from across America to join him in launching this new initiative, Pastor Hagee enlisted the help of over 400 Christian ministers, each representing a denomination, mega-church, media ministry, publishing company, or Christian university. Each one answered the call and Christians United for Israel was born. Today, CUFI boasts a membership of over 50 million Christian Zionists in America.

    Unlike other Christian evangelical organizations whose raison d’etre is to persuade Jews to embrace the teachings of Jesus and to convert, CUFI lauds the Jewish faith and tradition and exhorts Jews to return to G-d and the timeless teachings of the Torah. As such, Pastor Hagee has created alliances with many Orthodox rabbis and organizations, including Rabbi Yitzchok Dovid Grossman of Israel’s Migdal Ohr. Quoting scripture to support his thesis that Christians are obligated to love Jews and lend their succor to Israel, Pastor Hagee said, “In the Bible, G-d says, “I will bless those that bless you and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you” (Genesis 12:3) and we Christians must support Israel’s right to the land because G-d commanded us to. In Genesis, (13:14-17), the Bible says: “The L-rd said unto Abram… ‘Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art.. for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever…”

    The main objective of the attendees, who hailed from every state in the nation as well as Canada, Europe, Israel, and Africa was to lobby their elected officials for their complete commitment to support the State of Israel in these most “trying times”. Continual references to the growing threat of an Iranian nuclear attack on Israel and the proliferation of such well funded terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah captured center stage at the summit. In a forceful declaration, Pastor Hagee intoned, “There is a new Hitler in th

  • 117 Matt // Aug 2, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    Al,

    What did you think of this?

    “Unlike other Christian evangelical organizations whose raison d’etre is to persuade Jews to embrace the teachings of Jesus and to convert, CUFI lauds the Jewish faith and tradition and exhorts Jews to return to G-d and the timeless teachings of the Torah. “

  • 118 visitor // Aug 3, 2008 at 12:33 am

    They need to return to God through His Son Jesus Christ. You people are so out to lunch on this worship of unsaved Israel. Stay with Christ’s teachings and let the Holy Spirit do His work. Stop hindering the work.

  • 119 Al // Aug 4, 2008 at 5:12 am

    Hey Matt and everyone,

    If I read this correctly, then the author is suggesting that the teachings of Yeshua(Jesus) DIFFER from the Torah??

    All Yeshua ever taught from WAS from the Torah!!
    He was a Jewish rabbi. The gospels tell us that He taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath. He even taught in the temple in Jerusalem. He promoted the Torah like no one else. He told the crowds that if they believed what Moses said, then they would have no problem believing in Him since Moses spoke of Him. When asked what was the greatest commandment, He quoted from Deuteronomy chapter 6 what Jewish people recite on every Sabbath to THIS DAY (the Shema)!! “Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One, you shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. And you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two commandments pivot the Torah(Law) and the Ne’evim(Prophets).

    The biggest obstacle to the Jewish people coming to Messiah is being told that in order to follow Him, they would have to stop obeying the commandments of God as given through Moses. Moses warned that only a false prophet would teach this doctrine. Moses further instructed the Jewish people not to tolerate false prophets who lead the people away from worshiping the One true God. Yeshua was not a false prophet because He did teach Torah. How could He be the Messiah otherwise??

    As a matter of fact, when the anti-messiah appears that is exactly what he will do according to Shaul(the apostle Paul). He will oppose the teaching of Torah. That is why he is called the “man of lawlessness”. He will oppose God’s laws and commandments. Revelation says he will persecute those that obey God’s commandments and have the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua on the other hand, told His disciples that if any teach against the Torah, that person will be considered the least in the kingdom.

    It’s time for the church to wake up and realize the Jewish people have no reason to believe us when we promote an idealism that says you no longer need to be Jewish or keep the Torah if you believe in Yeshua.

    If John Hagee or anyone else for that matter patronize the Jewish people in this way, they are not doing them any favors.

  • 120 Matt // Aug 7, 2008 at 8:44 am

    Al,

    Thanks for the response! I enjoyed reading it and I have a couple of questions:

    What exactly do you mean by “keep the Torah” when you say, “It’s time for the church to wake up and realize the Jewish people have no reason to believe us when we promote an idealism that says you no longer need to be Jewish or keep the Torah if you believe in Yeshua.”?

    Do you mean the Jewish people that have believed in Jesus as Lord have to keep all 600+ laws in the Torah? Does their failure to keep them affect their salvation?

    Are Jewish people saved by grace, by works, or by some combination of the two?

    What about the fact that today Judaism is not simply a matter of “keeping Torah” but of following the teachings of several centuries of Rabbis?

    Also, do you really think that the biggest obstacle to Jewish people coming to Messiah is that the Christian Church tells them they have to stop obeying Moses?

    I would say that the primary reason so few Jewish people are coming to Messiah is due to the fact that a “partial hardening” or “blindness in part” has come upon Israel until the time of the “fullness of the gentiles.” (Romans 11:25) This blindness is a part of God’s larger redemptive plan for humanity and cannot be blamed on any action or teaching of the Church. However, gentiles are supposed to be making Israel jealous (Romans 11:14) and provoking within them Jewish people a desire to turn to the Messiah; unfortunately, the said truth is Christians throughout history have mostly made the name of Jesus odious to Jewish people by their anger and ungodly behaviour.

    This sad reality has done nothing to help Jewish people come to Christ.

    I look forward to your reply.

    Blessings!

    Matt

  • 121 Al // Aug 8, 2008 at 6:11 am

    Matt,

    I appreciate your questions.

    First, there is only ONE way for a sinner (Jew or Gentile) to be saved and reconciled back God. We are all separated from God because of sin. Keeping a set of rules will not save anyone. I say this despite the fact that His commandments should be obeyed because they provide a standard or guideline by which to live.

    The only method of salvation according to the scriptures is the blood of the Lamb. We cannot enter into covenant relationship with Him any other way. I repeat. You cannot have a relationship with a just and holy God unless your sin is dealt with. It’s not about what we can do to earn salvation. It’s about what God did to provide it. It is simply up to us to apply the blood of the Lamb He provided for us to our hearts and minds. Just as the Israelites were instructed to apply the blood of the Passover lamb on the doorposts of their homes, we are called to apply the blood of the ultimate Passover Lamb, Yeshua to the doorposts of our hearts. It was after they applied the blood that God was able to deliver them from death and break the power of Pharaoh over their lives. It will be just like that prior to Yeshua’s return. They overcame by the word of their testimony and by the blood of the Lamb.

    Once we are saved and are in covenant relationship with God, we have an obligation to obey His commandments. Why? Because obeying Him involves following His commandments. We follow them not to earn salvation, but because we love Him and are grateful for the salvation He provided. So yes, all believers in Yeshua, Jew and Gentile, are saved by grace. It is God who provided the Lamb for our sins. Modern day Judaism does not believe this way. It is tainted with traditions of men ignoring the heart of what Moses taught Israel to do.

    As far as what laws in the Torah we should be following, that all depends on who we are referring to. There are laws that apply only to men. There are laws that apply only to women. There are commandments pertaining to the priesthood or cohanim. There are even laws pertaining to the king of Israel.

    Then there are commandments that are universal and apply to all, Jew and Gentile.
    We are not to have any other God except YHVH (I AM THAT I AM), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
    We are not to make idols or graven images in order to worship them.
    We are not to misuse His Name. We are to honor and show reverence for His Name.
    Messiah’s Name is also tied to God’s: Yahshua (YHWH saves)
    We are to remember the seventh day of the week (Sabbath). God says we are to sanctify this day in honor of how He rested on this day after completing the creation of the universe and that He has set apart a day for us to rest in Him.
    We are to honor our parents because through them God gave us life. Honoring them will bring blessing upon ourselves, esp when we become parents. This is a pattern to be established from generation to generation. end of part 1

  • 122 Al // Aug 8, 2008 at 6:15 am

    part 2

    We are not to commit murder. We are not to steal from others. We are not to spread lies about others. We are not to covet whatever belongs to others. We know these to be the ten commandments. I’m sure that a lot of what I have said you already know, if not all of it.

    Does the church tell the Jewish people to stop obeying Moses? I say yes.
    Why do gentile believers expect the Jewish people to come to Messiah when we who claim to be His followers do not act or live according to the commandments that He himself promoted? Tell me, do we really honor the Biblical Sabbath that Yeshua Himself honored? No, we do not. Instead we imitate pagan sun-worshippers by assembling on the first day of the week. Instead of celebrating the Passover that Yeshua commanded His disciples to celebrate in His memory after fulfilling it, the church instead celebrates a pagan substitute which can be traced back to the worship of a goddess of fertility. The egg coloring ritual hasn’t changed either except that real blood isn’t used. Instead of truly understanding that Messiah came into world during the Feast of Tabernacles (the nativity scene we are all familiar with is actually a succah or booth), we focus on the pagan tradition of the winter solstice and the birth tradition of the pagan sun-god dating back to the time of Semiramis, mother of Nimrod. These are just two examples of how the church is responsible, at least in part, for Israel’s hardening towards Messiah. He is not presented as the Jewish King of Israel. Instead, His sacrifice is presented as the reason we do not need to follow the Torah, because supposedly He nailed the Law to the Cross. Therefore we do not need to follow the Law or so the reasoning goes.

    Yeshua however did not come to do away with the Law. He came to fulfill the Law by writing the Law in our hearts, as per the new covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31. We will never provoke Israel to jealousy unless they actually see us celebrating the Feasts of YHVH which are foreshadows of the Messiah’s redemptive work and coming reign on the earth. Before Israel is restored, there needs to be restoration within the body of Messiah to the Biblical Hebrew/Jewish roots of the faith. Only then we will be equipped to provoke Israel to jealousy.

    We should never forget that we fight a spiritual war with HaSatan. If there is one thing that the enemy does not want to see happen, it is this restoration. I believe this restoration is the reason why end time believers will be persecuted so severely by the antimessiah. They keep the commandments of YHVH and have the testimony of Yeshua.

    Thanks for listening.

    Shalom in Messiah,

    Al

  • 123 Matt // Aug 8, 2008 at 7:58 am

    Al,

    That was a very well thought out and articulate answer. Thanks for sharing.

    I oculd not agree with part 1 of your post more. I am afraid that we may diverge a little, however, once it comes to some issues within part 2.

    With respect to keeping the Sabbath: How do you suggest one should keep the Sabbath? In Numbers a man was stoned to death because he picked up sticks on the Sabbath. Should we do that? After all, that is the way Moses understood the Sabbath to be kept.

    Col. 2:16 says, “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day–”

    Romans 14:5-6 says something similar, “One person regards one day above another, another regards every day {alike.} Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.”

    The idea here is the same: if one man wishes to keep one day as a Sabbath, and another man wishes to keep another, then it is fine. The only requirement is that they do so “for the Lord” and that they “be fully convinced in their own mind.” The “festival” refered to in Col. 2 could easy be applied, in my opinion, to Christmas. If a believer honors Jesus, and thanks God for His sacrifice, on Decemeber 25th he does so “for the Lord.”

    Both passages, if you read the entire chapters, end with an instruction to not judge one another on these issues.

    I understand that to mean if a Gentile (or Jew) wishes to honor God by “observing” Sunday rather than Saturday then fine. If a Jew (or Gentile) wishes to observe Saturday rather then Sunday then that is also fine. As long as neither group attempts to condemn others for being different.

    Similarly, one believer may eat pork, and thank God for it, while another abstains from pork as a away to honor God. I say: praise the Lord.

    Remember, the Lord Himself told Peter (regarding unkosher animals) not to call anything unclean that God had made clean.

    Also, there is a strong indication that the Apostles (Acts 20:7) themselves gathered together on Sunday, likely to honor the factthat it was on this day the they discovered Jesus risen from the tomb (Mark 16:9, Luke 24:1, etc. etc.).

    If it was okay for the Apostles to do so then I am certainly not going to judge someone for doing so today.

    In fact, Jesus also said that Loving the Lord God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as your self basically was the summation of the entire law. We should focus on those issues and worry less about whether someone is wearing a shirt of mixed fiberws.

    However, a mature Christian can lay aside their freedoms so as not to stumble someone else. When witnessing to Jewish people that may mean meeting on a Saturday and not eating pork (for two examples). This is a very practical way to “love your neighbor.”

  • 124 Matt // Aug 8, 2008 at 8:07 am

    Part 2

    In fact, when I have lived in Muslim areas I made a point not to eat in public during Ramadan, not to keep pork in my house (so they would feel okay eating there), and certainly not to drink alcohol. Any of these things would greatly offend a Muslim. And while I know keeping such religious laws in no way makes you righteous, I do not want my lifestyle to be a hindrance to some one coming to Christ.

    As far as I can tell, scripture gives the believer quite a bit of leeway (ie grace) on a number of these issues, so long as a person is honoring God and putting others before themselves.

    Of course, any Mosaic laws that are reaffirmed in the New Testament (murder, adultery, lying, homosexuality, lust, etc. etc.) should be obeyed in every circumstance.

    Anyway, that is my two cents worth. When it is all said and done, as long as we recognize and teach that Jesus and the grace offered to us thru Him are the ONLY means of satisfying a just God then I am quite content.

    Thanks for your input. I appreciate your candor and look forward to further discussions with you in the future.

    Blessings.

    Matt

  • 125 Al // Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 am

    Matt,
    I am glad that you agree with what I said regarding how God has provided salvation for us through the blood of Yeshua. So I approach you as a brother in Messiah and would ask that you carefully consider what I’m saying.
    Regarding Shabbat, I believe Yeshua demonstrated how we should view this topic. After all, He referred to Himself as Lord of the Sabbath. He claimed that Shabbat was made for man, not vice versa. The passage in Numbers 15 talks about the man who gathered wood on Shabbat. If you read the passage, it was not Moses who condemned the man. It was God Himself who ordered Moses to issue a death sentence. It does seem rather harsh. The answer is found in the passage just preceding (verses 30-31). It wasn’t because he simply picked up sticks. It had to do with the man’s contempt for the Lord’s commandment regarding the Sabbath and not doing regular work. That’s what got him stoned.
    You indicated that the dietary laws from the Torah don’t really matter. You referred to the passage from Acts where we find Simon Peter on the roof of the house of Simon the tanner. God shows him a vision of unclean animals and tells Simon to eat them. Simon responds by refusing to eat what is being offered since the animals are forbidden in the Torah to be used as food. God tells Simon that what He has made clean do not call impure or unclean. This happens three times. God ends the vision leaving Simon quite puzzled. The mystery behind the vision is soon revealed. Simon realizes what his vision meant. Jews and Gentiles can fellowship together when both follow the God of Israel through Messiah. In the body Gentiles are not considered second class citizens. They are co-heirs along with their Jewish brothers in God’s kingdom. The passage has nothing to do with changing the kosher dietary laws. In fact the distinction between kosher and non-kosher can be seen even during the time of Noah. What were God’s instructions to Noah regarding gathering of the different animals to the ark? Take seven pairs of clean animals and two pairs of unclean animals. This is centuries before Moses receiving the kosher dietary laws from God. Apparently Noah knew which animals were kosher and which were not. After the flood, what does he use for sacrificing unto the Lord? Only clean or kosher animals. We do not have the right to change what God has established in His word. When we interpret a specific passage of scripture, it should be done in light of all scripture. No, we don’t want to be petty and discourage people from following Messiah by being legalistic. But we should instruct properly when talking about the scriptures. Other people are viewing our comments. I want people to understand that ALL scripture is the Word of God, not just the new testament. Anytime you have an interpretation that says one scripture cancels or makes invalid another scripture, we should all have a problem with that. What say you? Al

  • 126 Matt // Aug 13, 2008 at 9:06 am

    Al,

    Thanks for the thoughtful and well spoken response!

    I certainly agree that ALL scripture is inspired and is equally important to our faith. I do have a couple of further questions:

    1) Would you explain your thoughts concerning the verses I mentioned earlier? -Romans 14 and Col. 2-

    Especially the last several verses of Col. 2:

    "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"   (which all {refer} {to} things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men. These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, {but are} of no value against fleshly indulgence."
    

    2) Do you personally attempt to obey every single Mosaic commandment that applies to you? What about the ones dealing with a woman (if you are married) being “unclean” during menstruation? Does your wife have to go “outside the camp”? What about stoning adulterers? Should a woman who has been raped be given as a wife to her rapist?

    If, as I suspect, you do not keep all of these laws then I ask this question:

    How do you decide which ones to obey and which ones to not?

    That is at the heart of the matter. None of us live in complete accordance with the literal meaning of the OT laws. If we did Jesus would not need to save us. So, who decides which laws are binding?

    Look fwd to your reply.

    Blessings!

  • 127 Americas finest // Sep 30, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    I LOVE AMERICA!
    GOD BLESS AMERICA!

  • 128 Rick // Feb 27, 2009 at 5:47 am

    Thanks SO much for posting this. I’ve been googling EVERYWHERE trying to find this out and now you’ve basically given me everything I needed here. The interweb is great!

  • 129 WasBlindNowISee // Apr 1, 2009 at 3:00 am

    haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1075465.html

  • 130 WasBlindNowISee // Apr 1, 2009 at 3:01 am

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/23/israel.gaza.un.report/index.html

  • 131 Rapture Forums // Jun 28, 2009 at 8:12 am

    Nice site. Keep up the good work. :-)

  • 132 Margaret Gidio // Nov 26, 2009 at 11:38 pm

    Ryan White\’s real father is the Governer of Minnesota?

  • 133 gwent // Jan 6, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    Zionist are looser but pussy mind,FIGHT IRAN LIKE a MAN

  • 134 G.zusS // Jan 12, 2010 at 7:31 pm

    Special People:

    I’ve just read the text of Mr. Jason Kenney’s speech at the Global Forum for Combating Anti-Semitism in Jerusalem on December 16, 2009. In it he says the Jews are different. How so? Then again, isn’t that the problem we’ve always had in this world, and isn’t that the biggest threat to world peace today? People thinking that they’re special or different? Wasn’t that Hitler’s idea as well? A “Master Race”. It’s the same psychological profile, no matter how you cut it. A distorted sense of entitlement.

    Peace will only come when religions and nations stop considering themselves special or different, and work together, stand up for “all of humanity” and recognize our “equality” in the eyes of God. If the Spirit of God is truly with you, it will only be known by acts of “unconditional” love and charity.

    The plain truth is, God doesn’t have a religion and God doesn’t discriminate. Any religion that preaches they’re the only “true religion”, or that they‘re “special”, in God’s eyes, preaches false doctrine. And to foster a belief in, “us” and “them” is to divide humanity, not unite it.

    And so it will be in The End, that those who have set themselves apart from their fellow man will find that they have set themselves apart from God. The worth of a soul will only be measured by how much it has loved. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • 135 OSA // Jan 18, 2010 at 8:46 am

    Please consider joining the very large blog called Newsvine.com, which is owned by MSNBC. There are probably 500K members of Newsvine.com, and you will meet some very capable Pro-Jewish posters there. Unfortunately, there is a very well-entrenched, seemingly officially tolerated larger group of anti-semitic members who seem to have the run of the place. Please help fellow Jews there! Oh, tell them OSA sent you, and please tell Calvin (Newsvine’s Co-Founder) that OSA is happy to recommend Newsvine.com to Pro-Jewish organizations everywhere! :-)

  • 136 Qutub // Feb 1, 2010 at 7:55 am

    JEWS KILLED JESUS

  • 137 John // Feb 1, 2010 at 7:56 am

    KILL JEWS TO AVENGE CHRIST

  • 138 margaret bailey // Mar 3, 2010 at 5:26 am

    the trouble with the word christian,its lost its real meaning. borne again christians,like myself often get ridiculed,why because were different.God made an everlasting covenant with abraham,issiac and jacob.all the hatred,no its not normal, its demonic,the enemey stirs up trouble,as in the book of job.small fish like the bbc,are anti semetic.God says i will bless those who bless you,and curse those who curse you.in this era of cable,satilite, you would think we had an option as to paying for a licence to watch tv.i dont watch the bbc,only sky,were i watch my christian broadcasting channels. so let us all pray the lord will take away the licence fee from them,for they think they are a law unto themselves. why should we fund them,and pay there wages.the lord spoke to me many years ago,and said pray for the peace of jerusalem so i do,also as a watchman i keep a close eye on israel,and the middle east.why do the nations rage,and the peoples plot in vain? but the lord will rebuild davids fallen tent. he will we cant,but great is the holy one of israel among us.let us trust in the lord,and lean not to our own understanding. may the lord richly bless you.shalom in the name of yeshua. margaret bailey.

  • 139 Charles Wesley // Mar 8, 2010 at 5:22 am

    Margaret Bailey ,
    The real test of how much you love Jesus is if the Mark of the Beast were to be implimented soon as it will , could you walk away from everything you have and could have and refuse to take the mark( Verichip) ? Also could you walk away from your loved ones that could not walk away ? This happened once already , to Lot and Sodom Gamorrah. Could you be as in the day where Lot fled evil ?

  • 140 Rapture Forums // Jul 4, 2010 at 5:07 am

    That sounds like a nice site. Keep up the good work. I think it will be a welcome addition to the Zionist cause. God bless.

    Chris

  • 141 tier // Sep 26, 2010 at 6:31 am

    your site is a fire that will burn all of you alive !!

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