Is the growing apathy apparent in both the US and Israel in the face of mounting threats further evidence that we are very close to the end of the present age described in the Bible?
A commenter over at Stan’s blog noted that Jesus foretold that people would grow increasingly apathetic, even about their own security, just before His return.
Matthew 24:37-39:
But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
It is not that people today should stop living and hide in their basements, but there is a shocking lack of concern in Israel regarding the very real possibility of war with Syria, a war that by all accounts would include the use of long-range ballistic missile tipped with non-conventional warheads.
Most in Israel even seem to be completely unmoved by the fact that if a war happens, a majority of the population will be without updated gas masks and emergency medical kits. Even if there is only, say, a 5% chance of war, wouldn’t you still want to be prepared by at least being in possession of an updated gas mask? And yet, there is no outcry in Israel to get this done.
Indications from friends and acquaintances in the US is that the situation there is similar. The threat from global jihadists, nuclear-armed Islamic regimes and an increasingly hostile internal Muslim population is talked about, but most brush it off as something that will never affect them.
I can only speak first-hand about what is going on in Israel, but to me the situation just seems to make no sense. The almost complete lack of concern is nonsensical, especially for a nation that has faced more than one war of annihilation. That is, unless you view the situation in the context of Jesus’ words.
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257 comments so far ↓
1 Jennifer Blankenstein // Aug 10, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Hi,
Do you believe that the Jewish people have to receive Yeshua as
their Saviour, in order to go to Heaven when they die? And what do you believe about the Jewish people during the trib.
Thanks,
Jennifer Blankenstein
2 Michael // Aug 10, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Ryan,
While I understand the apathetic attitude and the want for the people of Israel to open their eyes to the looming threat, we need to remember what God has said regarding them. First in Romans 11:25 Paul made it clear since they rejected Jesus as Mssiah and gave Him to be crucified (Mt. 27:25), they would in part be blinded (porosis in Greek meaning: the mind of one has been blunted).
Romans 11:25 tells us they have become spiritually blind until the body of believers is gone;
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
As much as Christians wish they would wake up, it just is not going to happen until 2/3 of the seed of Jacob (Israel) is killed (Zech. 13:8 & 9) just before Jesus returns seen in Zechariah 14:4.
In response to Jennifer, the “time of Jacob’s (Israel) trouble” IS what has been incorrectly labled the tribulation period. It is intended for Israel, but, any Gentile (non Israelite) who still has not become a born again believer will participate in what happens then.
God’s plan for Israel, however, is to bring them back into the new covenant through Jesus. (Jer. 31:13, Heb. 8:8, 12:24).
Hebrews 8:8;
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
YBIC,
Michael
3 Anne // Aug 11, 2007 at 1:48 am
Michael,
Romans 11:25 does not say ‘until the body of believers
are gone’
It says ‘until the fullness of the gentiles be come in.’
I do not see the former meaning the latter, nor do I take the latter to mean ‘a snatching away.’
I take this to mean that there is coming a time when God will see and know the ‘fullness’ of the gentiles time, as in; the last person who will recieve His Testimony and therefore His saving Grace. Or maybe even the last believer who is martyred for His faith in Yeshua or Messiah.
What God will do at this time is unclear. ‘We have a promise to keep; the meaning of which is to be faithful unto the end. Those who claim His promises and look for Him will be saved if there Heart awaits Him.
What is not exactly clear through the words of scripture,
will be exactly clear when we see Him, for His Testimony will be made manifest unto all and throughout all His followers.
Be careful in the meantime that you be not so sure like the Pharisees, the letter to dot and tittle.
This is God’s job to accomplish and He has great and wonderful ways, marvelous, past finding out.
What is impossible with man is possible with God.
‘He saved me, in my ignorance.’ and ‘in my sin’
and ‘in my blindness. I was pitiful. I cried out to Him and He heard my cry, and led me in the path of Righteousness and Truth, through Mercy and Love.
Praise His Name Forever.
Anne
4 Michael // Aug 11, 2007 at 8:10 am
Anne,
Your salvation is a wonderful thing, as is my own and any other lost sinner who comes to belief in Jesus.
If you studied His Word in it’s original Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek, as I do, you would gain a deeper understanding of what truly was spoken.
Romans 11:25 states in the portion you question: “…achri (until) hos (which) ho (the) pleroma (filling) twn (of the) ethnos (nations) eiserchomai (may be entering)…”
The Greek verb “eiserchomai” (ice-er’-khom-ahee) 1525, is used in describing the actual phyisical “entering” of a person, or persons, into either a physical place, an office as a public servant or a condition, meaning from the actual description referencing life itself as a new child, or a born again believer into newness of life.
It is used 186 times in the NT in siuch examples as follows.
Acts 3:8; And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered (eiserchomai) with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Romans 5:12; Wherefore, as by one man sin entered (eiserchomai) into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Hebrews 4:6; Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter (eiserchomai) therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered (eiserchomai) not in because of unbelief:
You can choose to believe what you wish, however God’s Word as written by Paul stated “eiserchomai” which means the actual physical “entering in” to a different place from that which the subject is currently in. That “subject” is “ethnos” (nations or Gentiles).
The “porosis” (spiritual dumbness) that has fallen on Israel did so when they “cut off” (karath, Hebrew : to cut a covenant, cut a body part off, to destroy) Jesus and they became “porosis” until the “pleroma twn ethnos eiserchomai.”
For my understanding of Greek it means precisely what it states. When the full compliment of the Gentiles who are here that God has chosen to be the full compliment, outside of Israel, have “eiserchomai” His Kingdom and the “time of Jacob’s trouble” begins.
What God will do is quite clear to me. He makes the call for His Son the call His body home and the 3 1/2 year long period known as “Jacob’s (Israel) trouble” begins.
And as you said, be careful not to be as the Pharisees who Jesus warned in Matthew 16:3;
And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
I’ll spend my time “rightly dividing” His Word in the original language, as I do day in and day out, that I might gain a better unbderstanding of precisely what His Spirit inspired men to pen, with His Spirit as my guide.
There is much more to be gained by knowing the actual words and there meaning, as given, not men’s or women’s, suppositions.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
5 Renée // Aug 11, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Well, if the Israelis are apathetic, what can be said about the overall condition of the Church in the US? ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz
May our Redeemer have mercy on us.
6 Renée // Aug 11, 2007 at 5:48 pm
OT–
Btw, Michael, I really liked your replies in these comments, do you post at the forum you have linked your name to?
Please forgive the off topic question, and continue on with the topic at hand. ;-)
7 Jamie // Aug 11, 2007 at 6:10 pm
What does the Word of God say in the scripture following Roman’s 11:25? Does it say that once the fullness of the gentiles has come in that 2/3 of Israel will be destroyed? Does it say that once the fullness of the gentiles comes in that God’s retribution upon the Israelites will take place? Does it say that once the fullness of the gentiles comes in that Israel will face its time of trouble?
No, what it says is that once the fullness of the gentiles has come in, then the “WHOLE” of Israel will be saved. Do not simply listen to men, but read the Word of God. The Bible interprets intself. THere is no need of speculation of opinion.
8 Michael // Aug 11, 2007 at 6:40 pm
Rene’e,
Yes I do post there as I am the site OP. Feel free to drop in it’s free.
Jamie,
I fully realize what God’s Word states in verse 26. You still have to consider what God states in Zechariah 13:8 & 9 just before Jesus returns and sets up His Millenial Kingdom. He is seen in Romans 11:26 as the coming Deliverer that is seen again in Zechariah 14:4.
First however, 2/3 of Israel (seed of jacob) will be killed.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Add to that the prophecy from Ezekiel 37:11-14 that shows AFTER the “time of Jacob’s trouble” God opens the graves of ALL ISRAEL and breathes life into the dead bodies. He puts His Spirit in them and brings the house of Judah and Israel together as one nation of people.
Ezekiel 36 and 37 tells us what God is going to do during that 1,000 years. After the 1,000 years are up, Satan is loosed and gathers Gog and his multitudes against Israel one last time and He sends fire to destroy them all as seen in ezekiel 38 & 39 and Rev. 20:7 & 8.
The 2/3 WILL die, just as God’’s Word states Jamie. And you are so right, about listtening to men, that is why I do not listen to the musings of men, only His Word as His Spirit gave men, and guides me now. In the original Hebrew and Greek.
Instead of critiquing me, perhaps a little more studying is in order on your part. Everyting I have stated is His Word, nothing added, nothing diminished.
YBIC,
Michael
9 Michael // Aug 11, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Here are the verses from Ezekiel 37:11-14 that prove God will restore ALL Israel even after they have died.
11: Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
God fully intends to save ALL Israel, even those already dead. He has stated they are His elect and He will save them all. Sadly, first 2/3 will die before He brings them back to life and resurrects them Jamie, just as His Word states.
YBIC,
Michael
10 Ryan // Aug 11, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Wow, I have never heard that passage interpreted in such a manner, Michael. Nearly every Bible scholar I have ever heard, both Christian and Jewish, read that passage to be talking about the Lord’s restoration of Israel as a nation-state in its God-given land.
The children of Israel are being brought forth from their graves of exile and being given flesh as a nation again.
Out of curiosity, how does your interpretation of that passage mesh with your belief that 2/3 of the Jews will be killed after all have been brought back here to Israel, and then will be resurrected and, according to verse 12, brought back to Israel again? They are already in Israel, where are they being brought from the second time?
11 Michael // Aug 11, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Ryan,
There isn’t one passage that says they will be killed after they are brought back to the land. You are looking at it backwards. Ezekiel 36 and 37 are a picture of what occurs during the 1,000 years. Zechariah 13:8 & 9 is at the end of “Jacob’s trouble” just prior to Jesus setting foot back on the mount of Olives seen in Zechariah 14:4;
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east
Ezekiel 36 & 37 is the total restoration, not of UN mandated Israel, but, the body of people who are direct descendants of Jacob and the 12 tribes. That, and only that is Israel. As God states in Psalm 105:6 it is ONLY the seed from Jacob that is Israel. Not a bunch of people claiming to be Jews living in the UN mandated tract named Israel.
O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
As He states, the CHILDREN OF JACOB are His chosen, none other.
It matters not what men have been saying that because the UN mandated a piece of land on a map with man set borders they call Israel. It is not what God’s Word says Ryan.
If God has clearly stated He will kill 2/3 of Israel just before Jesus returns, then I’ll bank my beliefs on His Word, not so called Bible scholars who, BTW also falsely state there will be a third “temple of God” built in Jerusalem.
God will resurrect the dead in Christ as 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Why is it so inconceivable that He will do the same to His elect Israel? He has clearly stated He will save ALL Israel, that means quite simply ALL.
The body of believers in Jesus Christ will be resurrected and redeemed and given new incorruptible bodies. Israel (seed of Jacob) are still in their mortal bodies as God’s Word states.
He brings their dead bodies out of the grave LITERALLY and places new flesh on them and they live again. Why is that so hard to see?
The problem has come from false teachers making things up as they go. Stick close to what His Word states and you’ll see there is no need to suppose the prophecies of Ezekiel are anything but literal. God resurrects His elect and puts actual flesh on them and breathes His Spirit into them.
Have you ever asked yourself how could God save ALL Israel (seed of Jacob) if He did not raise those who are dead from the grave?
Israel is not yet back in the land God gave them, not ALL Israel. That will not occur until Jesus returns and the deliverer of Zion is in the land. That does not occur until AFTER the “3 1/2 years known as “Jacob’s trouble” and 2/3 have been killed.
I hope this answers your question Ryan.
BTW Rene’e I post under the name Aletheuo. It is Greek and means “speak the truth.”
YBIC,
Michael
12 Ryan // Aug 11, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Sorry Michael, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on our interpretation of scripture. I am reading the Word, the same as you (and also in Hebrew) and I believe you are way off on several points.
Also, be careful about judging the “scholars” I left nameless in my post. Many of those scholars I referenced are personal friends of mine and men I know to be close to God. You don’t want to find yourself guilty of falsely judging a child of God. It is not right to disparage someone who is sincere in their devotion to the Lord and search for His truth just because their views and interpretations of scripture do not line up with your own.
I completely disagree with you on several points, but I will not condemn you just because I believe some of your interpretations are incorrect.
It seems that ultimately we are in agreement on the end result - the salvation of Israel and her return to the Lord - so I am confident that as His truth is further revealed to the whole earth, you and I will come closer together in our views. Until then, as Paul said, we will continue to see through a glass, dimly.
13 Michael // Aug 11, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Forgive me if I may have offended someone you personally know Ryan, that was not my intent.
Regardless of what you may believe as your interpretation, never forget God’s Word is not open for private interpretation as 2 Peter 1:20 states.
His Spirit living in us is the only source we are to use. If I see men who teach unverifiable Biblically, teachings that only fit the scenario that sells their book or tape, I will continue to stand against them.
I am interested in ONLY the truth.
YBIC,
Michael
14 Ryan // Aug 11, 2007 at 8:42 pm
I understand what you are saying, and can see that your heart is sincere. But understand that I too am only interested in God’s truth, and my reading and praying for the Lord to reveal that truth to me has led to a different view on certain aspects of what lies ahead.
Therefore, I would view your take on the situation as a private interpretation that does not line up with many other parts of God’s Word.
I am not going to condemn you as wrong, because I know that I, too, as a man will - again, as Paul cautioned - see through a glass, dimly until the Lord fulfills His Will completely.
I believe I am correct on many aspects of what is going to happen here. I believe the Lord has made those things clear to me, and I continue to always seek out His truth on these matters. I believe many fellow believers, such as yourself, have gotten these things wrong.
But, I also believe it is wrong to personally condemn a fellow believer over his or her view on these matters when they do not line up with our own, even if we must fight against what we view as false doctrines. We need to be careful not to personally judge one another, or others we do not know.
15 Michael // Aug 11, 2007 at 9:24 pm
I would ask this then Ryan, if you are so convinced I am in the wrong, can you show me Biblically those passages that support that idea?
I have listed the passages in context that support what I have stated. You have simply made statemments without any supportive Scripture saying it is your opinion I am in the wrong.
I am not judging anyone, I am doing precisely as we are told to do and that is judge what they say. We have been warned against false teachers and they abound.
I ask again, as a Brother in Christ if you believe I am wrong it is your duty to correct me. Can you do that with only Scriptural suooprt. If I am in the wrong and can be shown the error, I will be the first to admit my error and repent.
Are you willing to show me just where God’s Word verifies I am as you claim? You have my e-mail and are more than welcome to do so via that venue as to not tie up your board here.
YBIC,
Michael
16 Ryan // Aug 12, 2007 at 5:06 am
I will post a new blog entry regarding Jacob’s Trouble specifically later today.
17 Martin // Aug 12, 2007 at 10:02 am
This is a very insightful article that falls in line with my thoughts exactly. I follow the news headlines and prophecy as closely as I can in my free-time, and I cannot conceive of the world getting much worse or stage as being more prepapred than it is today before Jesus (Yeshua) returns for His church and the “man of sin” being revealed.
Thank-you for sharing this article with us.
18 Lee // Aug 12, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Greetings everyone….first i must say, i love this site..it’s interesting,educational and Ryan and ”most” of his regular commentors are caring,compassionate people….I do not know or understand most of the Teachings of The Bible,but i know it is The Word of God……i am curious about the Descendants of Jacob and The Twelve Tribes…aren’t the Christians Descendants of Jacob,if not by blood,by ..through believing in Christ??…..and is American/Christians belong to one of The Twelve Tribes??…Can someone please give me some answers..Thank You!
19 Michael // Aug 12, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Lee,
Interesting question. Even though the first “Christians” ie: Israelites like John, Mark, Matthew, Luke and the rest of the original twelve disciples, Christians in general are not “descendants” of Jacob.
Jacob had twelve sons which became the nation of people known as Israel. They took that name because that was the name God gave Jacob (Gen. 32:28, 35:10).
Those twelve families that descendaed from the bloodline of Jacob are what the Bible refers to as Israel.
Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles” (Rom. 11:13) brought the message of salvation to the world outside of Israel after they rejected Jesus and gave Him to be crucified (Mt. 27:23-31).
Born again believers are “grafted in” (Rom. 11:17-24) to the promise given Abraham and are only considered adopted (Gal. 4:5) and of the seed of Abraham through Jesus making us heirs to all that is His. Galatians 3:29;
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
American’s are more than likely from the offspring of Japhteth who by all known history was the 3rd son of Noah whose descendants after the flood settled on the coastal lands of the Mediterranean spreading north into Europe and parts of Asia. Since Americans are originally Europeans, it is most likely we are from the seed of Japheth.
That being the case and the fact that Abraham was from the seed of Noah’s son Shem, it is unlikely any American’s are related by blood to Abraham unless they are of course of the house of Israel and his twelve sons.
Hope this helps.
YBIC,
Michael
20 Al // Aug 12, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Greetings in Messiah Yeshua(Jesus).
I am a gentile believer in Messiah.
We will not understand how God will bring His kingdom to the earth until we understand certain basic principles regarding what is written in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Covenant Scriptures.
In both cases, the authors were Jewish, Luke possibly a gentile who converted to Judaism. This means that in order for us to understand the Scriptures properly, we should approach them from a Jewish or Hebrew perspective. This includes identifying with them( the Jewish people) if for no other reason, the Messiah Who shed His blood to make atonement for our sins was and still is Jewish.
Regarding the end times, the event known as the Rapture is actually the 1st resurrection(Revelation 20:4-6). I realize this is contrary to pretrib thinking. The 2 main passages related to the Rapture/Resurrection is I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:50-56. In both cases this event is identified with the blowing of a trumpet or shofar. I Corinthians clearly states this is the LAST trumpet. The last trumpet recorded in scripture is found in Revelation 11:15-19. It clearly states God’s servants receiving their reward in conjunction with the beginning of His rule on earth. Notice this takes place after the two witnesses have been killed by the beast and have been resurrected. By the way, I do not believe Revelation is purely chronological but goes back and forth in relation to the three sets of judgments (seals, trumpets and bowls).
If we are truly His people then we will stand with Israel through to the end, even if it means paying the ultimate price. What do you think will speak more loudly: God removing Gentile believers from the earth for 3 1/2 to 7 years while the Jewish people endure another greater Holocaust or someone like Corrie Ten Boom and family who was willing to be led to the concentration camp rather than abandon the very people that produced the Messiah who died to pay for our sins? When the Jewish people see the Church refuse to submit to the Anti-messiah and his false prophet, instead celebrating the feasts of Passover, Pentecost(Shavuot), Trumpets and Tabernacles, they will want to know why. Then we can tell them about the Messiah Who fulfills all of the feasts that God instructed them to observe in anticipation of Messiah. It will be just like the time of the first Passover, with Moses and Aaron ( 2 witnesses) going before Pharoah (the antichrist) and judgments following, just like in Revelation. It will also be like the time of Elijah before King Ahab. Only this time God has reserved 144,000 not just 7,000.
I truly look forward to hearing all of your thoughts on these things.
Shalom in Messiah
Al
21 Jamie // Aug 13, 2007 at 1:23 am
There are many questions I have regarding interpreting Ezekiels dead bones prophecy as occurring in the Milenium. However, the least of these is Israel’s inability to see the one whom they pierced (in Zech) while they are still dead in physical death.
All that I know for certain is that God is faithful and does not lie. He is perfect and there is no shadow of turning in Him. Therefore, if He says that the whole of Israel will be saved, then I believe Him. If He says that blessed are those who partake of the first resurrection, then I believe Him.
I do not believe anything a man says or writes, no matter his qualification. I will consider what people say about God and His Word, but then I will prove or disprove it by His Word. If His Word proves it out, then I will accept it as truth. I am not saying that I am some scholar, only that I have come to rely upon God’s Word to interpret itself. As Ryan said, with each passing day I see through a glass dimly, yet I see more revelation each day that I look. And these days do appear, more and more each day, to be as the days of Noah.
22 Lee // Aug 13, 2007 at 2:34 am
Whether i agree or disagree…..i get alot of useful information from the comments on this site…Thank you Michael, ..Al i have to say from what little i know about the Scriptures,i agree with you….and yes Jesus was a Jew…i noticed Michael that you dont refer to Jesus and his Disciples as Jews,nor the Authors of The Bible…..you don’t think they were Jewish?
23 Charles Wesley // Aug 13, 2007 at 3:28 am
Ryan , I am not a Bible scholar but , I did have the opinion that God had not cast away all of those Jews that were blinded in part so that the Gentile could receive Jesus . The almighty power of God the Father could easily bring those people back and put flesh on their bones to have their chance with Jesus . After all he will resurrect the whole bunch of us in some manner at the Judgement .
24 Michael // Aug 13, 2007 at 5:43 am
Lee,
Why is there such an emphasis on the known fact Jesus and His disciples were Jews? If you read my post #19 you could see I know that and acknlowledge that. Galatians 3:28 should answer your question regarding just who we are in Jesus and it should eliminate the focal point of who’s a Jew and who is not a Jew. By faith in Jesus, as the Christ of God, it is moot.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And your question regarding the authorship of the Bible itslef is answered in 2 Timothy 3:16;
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The Holy Spirit is the author of the written Word. Jesus was that Word made flesh. Those prophets, saints and apostles who penned those Words were inspired by His Spirit. All they did was put ink on paper as His Spirit inspired them.
Hopefully Lee, this will answer any questions you had regarding what I believe regarding Jesus and His disciples and their Jewishness and just Who is the author of the Word of God.
YBIC,
Michael
25 Marsha Carol Watson // Aug 13, 2007 at 6:01 am
Michael, I sense anger amidst pain in your posts. Someone has hurt you deeply….Remember, we are all Believers, so…we are one with Jesus Christ. We are all flesh and blood, and even with our very best efforts, we will not always agree. You are appreciated because you have a heart for our Lord and the Nation of Israel.
God bless your continued efforts and commitment to the Kingdom of God. We who are “grafted in” will all spend Eternity together in Heaven.
26 Michael // Aug 13, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Marsha,
I appreciate your comments but you couldn’t be further from the truth. I live in unfathomable joy knowing who I am in Christ and that He knew me before He created me, and yet loved me enough to choose me to gain inheritande into His kingdom.
The only thing that troubles me is the lies people have been taught and the sense of confusion that exisits among those who claim His blood.
We were warned over and again that “many” false teachers would come and deceive many. We have been warned of those who would “make merchandise” selling useless lies (2 Pet. 2:3) and are no different than the ones Jesus railed against and kicked out of His Fathers house in John 2:16;
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
The body of born again believers is now that “house” as seen in 1 Cor. 3:16;
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
1 Petter 2:5;
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
We are now that “temple of God” and I get absolutely furious at the lies that abound within His “temple” because people spend more time reading the useless words published in useless books instead of studying His Word, being guided by His Spirit.
If there is any anger it is mixed wiith frustration that people miss the absolute freedom of knowing His truth. It seems every one needs to write a book to explain what they claim God told them to do when in truth, God has no respect whatsoever for that.
Ecclesiastes 12:12-14 says it clearly;
12: And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14: For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
It isn’t a matter of agreeing or disagreeing Marsha, it is a matter of what is the truth. If it is not the truth as His Word states it in the original inspired text, it has little, if any value.
His Word is life itself and I am blessed that His Spirirt guides me to know that truth. I stand against any and all who claim to be what they are not. It should be a major concern to folks that Jesus warned in Mt. 7:22 & 23;
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I’ll not be found guilty of spreading lies.
YBIC,
Michael
27 Michael // Aug 13, 2007 at 1:50 pm
I ran out of space and I wanted to just say thank you for the kind words Marsha. I only am doing what His Spirit has to accomplish through me while I am here in this flesh.
That simply stated is to follow that Spirit and discover the truth within His Word that it might be brought into the light for all to enjoy.
There are so many issues that have been so falsely taught and abound now it is a wonder anyone even knows that Jesus Christ is the ONLY means of gaining salvation. Even that is becoming suspect within the false teachings of Church leaders today.
I care deeply for those who are my Brothers and Sisters but, the truth in His Word comes first, even if it slaps people in the face. The Pharisees of Jesus’ day were so incenced by the truth they flogged Him and hung Him on a tree for it, I don’t expect much more from all the false teachers who claim to be something they are not selling every sort of useless information, having their bank accounts as their god.
Jesus told us in Mt. 10:8-10 that freely we have received, freely we are to give. In verse 9 the Greek word that has ben translated to read “provide” is “ktaomai” and means “to procure for oneself.”
His Gospel message was given freely and it is to be shared freely. Not what is happening today as everybody seems to have figured out how to start a ministry selling useless information “in the name of God.”
Paul states in 1 Cor. 9:18 the gospel is “without charge” so the office he has been called to he will not abuse because of how money corrupts.
Paul’s admonition to the church in 1 Thess. 4:11 & 12 tells them they are to “work with their own hands” and not be found taking money as it will set those with nothing at odds. God’s work in spreading the truth in His Word, or evangelizing, is not meant to be a business.
Those who believe so need to read 1 Cor. 9, 2 Cor. 11, 1 Tim. 6 and open their eyes to the truth surrounding all those who market books, tapes and like “merchandise” seeking only to pad their bank accounts.
The biggest problem is the truth is not what they seek and the body has been deceived.
All I seek is truth and Jesus said He was the truth. His Word is Him and His Spirit guids me to that truth. It’s eitherall pure truth or not one word of it has value. And it is not up to private interpretation, only His Spirit can reveal the truth in His inspired Word.
That is all I seek.
YBIC,
Michael
28 Lee // Aug 13, 2007 at 3:15 pm
WOW….Thanks Michael for all those verses you posted,especially Ecclesiastes 12:12-14……up until 2-3 years ago,i never knew anything about Jews..Muslims…and only knew of Israel being a place somewhere…i really don’t know what happened or why,but i became obsessed with learning and wanting to know everything about them,and as you said,i am guilty of reading..reading…reading about Jews,Israel and Muslims/islam….but i think it’s done me mostly good,yet i do get confused alot from things,but everything i read,i look in Scriptures to ”try” to understand it…..Somewhere along these past couple years while learning about Israel and the Jewish People,i have developed this strange Love and Compassion for Them,i hurt and cry for Them…..I have no idea why…as i stated before,i am not very knowledged on The Bible,but i try so hard to learn…I don’t have a great Life,nor do i live the way i should….Although i have breath in me,i most of the time feel dead….I don’t understand any of this,why a person like me,who has nothing,who is not even educated or knowledge on The Bible,who does not even live a righteous life,why me an American,have these strange compassionate feelings for Israel and the Jewish People???..We have so many problems here in US,so why do i care more about whats going on in Israel?….can someone explain these confused feelings i have Please.
29 Michael // Aug 13, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Lee,
I understand what you feel. Never forget the most important thing regarding what you are feeling. Once you became a “born again” believer in Jesus as the Christ of God, He deposited His Spirit in you.
2 Cor. 1:22;
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
At that point a number of wonderful things happened, not the least of which is you were now grafted into the promise given Abraham and became an equal heir in Jesus’ Kingdom.
Galatians 3:29;
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
His Spirit lives in you Lee and His Spirit is guiding you to the feelings He has for His elect Israel (Isa. 45:4).
His Spirit knows what lies ahead and there is no doubt in my heart His Spirit groans for it to be over quickly. I sense His heart is broken beyond comprehension at what must come.
Stand strong in His Spirit Lee. He gave that to us to guide us and “comfort” us as we approach what is the inevitable “time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7). And what must occur to Israel as seen in Zech. 13:8 & 9.
Islam is the seed from Ishmael and Esau that so desperately wants what was covenanted to Isaac and Jacob. That is what we are seeing occur Lee. It’s the childrten of bondage by Hagar against the children of the promise in Israel by Jacob. (Ez. 35, Gal. 4).
I hope this helps a little.
YBIC,
Michael
30 Linda // Aug 13, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Michael,
Do you know when we (the Body of Christ) are leaving?
Linda
31 Susan // Aug 13, 2007 at 9:01 pm
I appreciate all that has been written on these pages. All of us bring our experiences, knowledge and gifts as we write, and I thank all of you. I have a question that I have been considering: Because we gentile believers have been “grafted in” to the family of God (Jewish believers), do we share a part of the events we all anticipate for Israel? It seems that the Muslims single out “Jews and Christians” as people of the book (Bible) and the jihad they preach and engage in is against both. So are we separated as “Family of God”, or are we spiritually one? I have a feeling it is the later, but then, I don’t know Hebrew or Greek. God knows and loves us all, no matter who is right, because He understands that in some respects, all of us have error in our thinking. We are human, and our brains are only about 6 or 8 pounds. Perfect understanding belongs to God. How worthy is He!!!
32 Linda // Aug 13, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Susan,
God says that “loves us all” as you say in a very specific manner, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” But any many to please God the man must have faith. The only way to get faith is by hearing and hearing by the Word of God–you have to believe what He says. Yahshua said that no man comes to the Father but by Him–meaning Yahshua.
Linda
33 Linda // Aug 13, 2007 at 9:09 pm
I made several errors that make what I wrote difficult to understand so I am reposting my reply to Susan with corrections:
God says that He “loves us all” as you say in a very specific manner, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” But for any man to please God the man must have faith. The only way to get faith is by hearing and hearing by the Word of God–you have to hear and believe what He says. Yahshua said that no man comes to the Father but by Him (meaning Yahshua).
34 Lee // Aug 13, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Thank you Michael so much,that verse Galatians 3:29 i never seen it before,i really needed to see it,but now it makes me still confused about something, Seems You and many Other Christians believe that so many Jews are going to be killed during the ” time of Jacobs troubles ”, but if Christians are also of the seed of Abraham thru Christ Jesus,doesnt that mean that Christians as well as Jews will die ? I believe so,but am confused on this ,like so many other things,Also i agree with you on muslims being the evil seed…I am curious of your personal oppinion on the ” palestine ” Arabs having any rights to the Land of Israel?…I think there is no such thing as a race called Palestine,nor does any Muslim have a right to the Land of Israel….My Countries leaders{AMERICA} will suffer greatly for ripping apart the Land of Israel,..just as Israels own leaders will cause great sufferings
35 Lee // Aug 13, 2007 at 9:24 pm
My questions is for everyone,not just Michael,cause i know there is a great controversy over the opinions concerning that only Jews will be killed during that troublesome time,i think Christians and Jews will die
36 Michael M. // Aug 13, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Michael,
I have heard many men interpret the word of God, and you come close to the best I have come across. For those looking for a more perpetual interpreter, Pastor Arnold Murray from the Shepherd’s Chapel is wonderful. He studies and translates wonderfully from Greek and Hebrew, and his Bible studies are profound and truthful. Google Shepherd’s Chapel for free online bible studies.
Michael, the way you interpret the word is very correct. You portray God as forgiving, loving, perfect, and all-knowing.
God wants us to love Him. He does not want us to read his word so that it can control our lives. He wants us to follow Him, and wants us to ask for His guidance. Let the Lord guide you. Many people today ‘do’ things because they believe they should because they are Christian. But true believers of the TRUE word will do things because they are lead by the Word. They know that Christ lead a perfect life, and while we will never be perfect, we still know who will judge us all in our death. Do not get caught up in your actions for the Lord, but be concerned with your faith and how it motivates you to live your life.
Remember, the Lord said that we will be judged according to Him and His ways. We are not perfect, but we as believers should do things because we know the Lord would have wanted it so. Do things in His name, and do them with love for Him in your hearts. God wants us to love Him, and He loves all of us, too.
Today, as Michael stated very properly, there are many men who will preach ‘falsehoods’, but you must remember that God’s word is the only word that counts. It is dangerous to profess falsehoods from the Bible. God will recognize deceiptful men; do not doubt this. But God also has even forgotten some of your sin(Job). What a beautiful thing His love for us is.
Michael, I cannot provide text references in the accuracy you can. But I am sure that the things I have said are true. Bless you for teaching and knowing His word. God Bless your love for Him.
37 Peter Gerard // Aug 13, 2007 at 10:03 pm
I have read the comments regarding the end of days and the return of Jesus.
Your all nuts.
IMHO
38 Lee // Aug 13, 2007 at 10:15 pm
MICHAEL forget my question regarding your opinion on the ” palestine ” people,i have been reading much in your site…i know where you stand>hugs, BTW great site
39 Delores O. // Aug 13, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Thank you Michael for your sound Spirit. You ARE listening and recieveing in truth. For the first time ever, I finally read the same understanding of ABBA YEHOVAH’s word here on this site. Michael, thank you, my brother. By studing the Hebrew and the Greek you DO get the whole truth. We have been so mislead by men’s doctrines, its unbelievable the state of heart and mind we are in. This shows us HIS mercy upon all of us!!! Continue in HIS strenght of HIS word and in the dwelling of HIS Spirit in your body. Continue to be that Watchman and show, tell, teach, share and write HIS truth in all purity. We have lost that purity because like sheep we follow many men and all their doctrines. Let the Spirit teach and show us all things. Let us all share what we have been told. Thats how we see that the Spirit is moving in all of us with the same understanding. Remember, its by HIS Spirit this will come to be and is now happening. Shalom to all…..Simcha in Texas.
40 Michael // Aug 13, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Linda,
I wish I had that answer but only God knows when He will tell His Son to call His body home. I wish it were yesterday.
Lee,
Let me see if I can addres your questions one at a time. The “time of Jacob’s trouble” is just that. Jacob IS Israel as are his seed. Christians are grafted in to the promise of Abraham, not the seed of Jacob. We are made of he seed of Abraham which comes before Jacob.
And no we will not be here to participate in what we have been saved from. That being ANY wrath (1 Thes. 5:9-11).
We are now His body and the temple of God’s Holy Spirit. There is no Biblical evidence we will be here during that time. As I mentioned above regarding Romans 11:25, the Greek word “eiserchomai” which was translated to say “be come in” is a verb meaning to physically leave one place and enter into another.
Your question about both Jews (Israel) and Christians being killed during thsi time is correct. However those you are calling Christians are not believers until AFTER the “harpazo.” That is clear from Rev. 20:4.
The following from Jeremiah 30:11 gives a bit more insight into what must happen to Israel as spoken to in verse 7 and Zech. 13:8 &9;
For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
God states He will correct Israel and will not levae them altogether “unpunished.” The Hebrew word translated as “unpunished” is “yacar” (yaw-sar’) 3256 and means: to discipline, correct
God will discipline them and what is so sweet is Ezekiel 36 & 37 shows He will “save ALL Israel” by bringing them ALL out of their graves and breathing newness of life into them. Not one human being of the bloodline of Israel will ever be removed from the presence of God eternally. He saya ALL and Eze. 37:11, 39:25 and 45:6 says the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and I’ll bank on God meaning just what He said. The Hebre word use in all three verses translated to “whole” is “kol” (kole” 3605 and means: totality, everything. So “kol” of the seed of Jacob known as Israel will be saved.
Michael M.,
Thanks brother for the kind words. I only type the words His Spirit does the guiding so, I cannot take credit for much of anything. As I said, I only want people to dig and question and learn the wonderful simplicity in His truth.
YBIC,
Michael
41 Michael // Aug 13, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Lee,
Thanks Sis, enjoy the site.
Peter Gerarad,
I’d rather be “nuts” in love with Jesus Christ and have His Spirit living in me than anything this world offers. BTW, you have any reasons why we’re all “nuts” or do you just enjoy saying stuff like that?
Thanks again Dolores. May the Lord bless all of you.
YBIC,
Michael
42 Chanah robinson // Aug 13, 2007 at 11:07 pm
shalom
I have question when it say in
Zechariah 13:8
8 In the whole land,” declares the LORD,
“two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
Is it only the Yisraelites or does this includes the Arabs?
And when reading Hosea
Hosea’s Wife and Children
2 When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, “Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD.”
3 So he married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel.
5 In that day I will break Israel’s bow in the Valley of Jezreel.”
6 Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Call her Lo-Ruhamah, for I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, that I should at all forgive them.
7 Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them—not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the LORD their God.”
8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son.
9 Then the LORD said, “Call him Lo-Ammi, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.
10 “Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ’sons of the living God.’
11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.
I had read it but never fully understood what it said not until GOD told me to re-read it yes then I understood.
If you read in connection with Jeremiah
Jeremiah 12
14 This is what the LORD says: “As for all my wicked neighbors who seize the inheritance I gave my people Israel, I will uproot them from their lands and I will uproot the house of Judah from among them.
15 But after I uproot them, I will again have compassion and will bring each of them back to his own inheritance and his own country. 16 And if they learn well the ways of my people and swear by my name, saying, ‘As surely as the LORD lives’-even as they once taught my people to swear by Baal—then they will be established among my people.
17 But if any nation does not listen, I will completely uproot and destroy it,” declares the LORD.
Shalom and love b’Shem YESHUAH
43 Michael // Aug 13, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Chanah,
Good question. If you’ll look back up in Zechariah 13:1 you’ll see just who God is speaking to.
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
The house of David is all of Judah. David is from the line of Judah so it more than likely is only speaking of the bloodline of Israel through Judah which Ishmael is not part of.
Remeber God told Jacob in Deuteronomy 1:8 He would give His promised land to Israel (Jacob) and his seed ONLY.
Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
I do not see any Islamic Arabs as they are enemies and will be dealt with differently. I hope this has helped.
YBIC,
Michael
44 Elkanah // Aug 14, 2007 at 12:30 am
To Michael (aletheuo),
Your zeal is truly admirable, but have you considered the fact that there is only One Who can claim to ‘be totally truthful’? You spread among people what YOU believe to be true. However, like the rest of us mortals, you rely heavily on information provided by others. After reading your comments I can see that your strength comes from teaching with a heavy hammer - not with gentl,eness and wisdom. Loving to tell the truth is one thing, but telling the truth in love is another. You place great emphasis on the King James Bible, yet it is the book that a) demonised the Jewish people, and b) has so many translation errors that it is a liability not an asset to the Christain church. It seems to me that your knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is entirely from Strong’s Concordance, which sets you high above most Christians who do not have one. Yet, you disparage so many people by setting yourself up as the only source of wisdom.
This is a pity, because a man of zeal has an enormous amount to offer to a lukewarm Church. Sadly, your zeal is NOT according to wisdom.
Perhaps you should study what Micah 6:8 is all about before proceeding with your admonitions and corrections. You have many very interesting things on your website, but also much error and this is dangerous dear brother.
Please remember that there are others too who have a love for the
Word of God and have spent much time in actually learning to speak Hebrew and Greek .
I am approaching old age and I have discovered with much pain that there is always someone who is wiser than I and with more understanding and knowledge. And I too love the truth!
45 Michael // Aug 14, 2007 at 1:01 am
Elkanah,
Forgive me if I do not follow what it is that you are suggesting.
I use the Geneva Bible and the KJV is only a reference tool. I do not solely use the Strongs Concordance I use both Hebrew and Greek references beyond what is on my site.
You make accusatory statements yet not one letter of correction nor one verse that bears out what you are saying.
Your suggestion I should study Micah 6:8 is relatively moot as the admonition of Micah 6 is God’s plea to Israel and has not one thing to do regarding what we have been discussing here.
You make claims what I have stated on the site I operate has “much error.” Then as a professing Brother in Christ, if in fact you are, it is your responsibility to correct and reprove me. Not with stinging accusations but as you state, in love and trth using God’s Word to do so. Just as 2 Timothy 3:16 states.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Anyone can make the statements you have accusing others and then just walk away. I am open for you to show me the errors, if you can. Are you enough of a Brother to do so?
I am nearing 60 years of age myself and study day in and day out as I am retired so I have all day.
YBIC,
Michael
46 Jeri // Aug 14, 2007 at 1:23 am
To all of you ,Please read Genesis48;11thru-19 and please read verse 19 again, and again, then read Exodus12:37-38-40 the mixed multitude was called Israel to ; so could the one;s beening called out be from the house of Ephraim, that was scattered all thru the nation;s just a throught, and the way that I understand that we all will go thru the tribulation to test us to see if we will stand up to satan and be true to the living G-D that we may live with him for all time. just as the childred of Israel was tested in the wilderness so we all will be tested. and to understand the HOLY SCRIPTURES you have to understand the Hebrew mind and their ways in Bible times. so study all to see if they say the same thing, read Isaiah 8:20
47 Al // Aug 14, 2007 at 2:06 am
Michael,
You wrote above that “God will discipline them and what is so sweet is Ezekiel 36 & 37 shows He will “save ALL Israel” by bringing them ALL out of their graves and breathing newness of life into them. Not one human being of the bloodline of Israel will ever be removed from the presence of God eternally. He saya ALL and Eze. 37:11, 39:25 and 45:6 says the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and I’ll bank on God meaning just what He said. The Hebre word use in all three verses translated to “whole” is “kol” (kole” 3605 and means: totality, everything. So “kol” of the seed of Jacob known as Israel will be saved.” My question to you is: Does this include the majority of the Sanhedrin i.e. Annas and Caiphas who rejected Messiah and turned Him over to the Romans to be crucified?
You also mentioned that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Messiah. It is true that your personal salvation does not hinge on what race or culture a person comes from. Salvation is found only in the shed blood of Yeshua thru faith that He paid the price and made perfect atonement (kipporim) for all who repent and confess He is Lord.
However, the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, male and female are there for a reason. We still need men and women to procreate, in response to God’s very first commandment to humanity- be fruitful and multiply. In like manner, we need to understand God made specific promises to the Jewish people that will not only bless them but we who are called from the nations to be part of His Body or grafted into His believing community. We are part of the commonwealth of Israel. Why? Because we are followers of the King of Israel, Yeshua. This is why we should not disconnect the Church from Israel.
Someone once put it this way. Suppose King George ruling the British Empire during the 19th century discovers that after establishing followers throughout the many nations in his empire, England the mother country has rejected him as king. However, some subjects throughout the empire from all of these nations continue to acknowledge him as king. Because he is the rightful king and he loves his native English he will attempt to regain his throne in England. He also loves those subjects throughout the empire who still revere him. They are considered citizens alongside with the native English.
This is but a small parallel to the relationship between Yeshua, Israel and the believers(Church). He is still and always will be the rightful King of Israel. A small minority of Jews acknowledge Him as Messiah Ben David. They represent the believing remnant of Israel. The apostle Paul addresses this in Romans 9, 10 and 11. Those of us who are gentiles and also acknowledge Him as King of Israel are considered co-heirs with them. This is God’s plan. To bless the nations of the world thru Israel and her true King, Yeshua. But we need to acknowledge Him exactly this way so that one day all of Israel will as well. Shalom in Messiah, Al
48 jeff // Aug 14, 2007 at 2:10 am
READ WITH ME EXODUS 34: 12, MOSES WARNING ISRAEL ” TAKE HEED TO THYSELF, LEST THOU MAKE A COVENANT WITH THE INHABITANTS OF THE LAND WHITHER THOU GOEST, LEST IT BE FOR A SNARE IN THE MIDST OF THEE”.
49 Tov // Aug 14, 2007 at 3:17 am
Excellent dividing — study is rewarding. I would like to point out that the Lord has exhorted us to stand firm against the wiles of the devil. [eph. 6:11]…. because your adversary the devil walks around like a roaring lion seeking whom to devour. [1Peter 5:8]. The human ego is perhaps a paradox; but it’s part of the package. It is so dominant in us, it can even take over in the middle a theological exchange, where hearts are sincere and full of passion. Compare 1 Cor. 13:1,2, to John 21:15–17.
YBIC
50 Herman L. Pickens // Aug 14, 2007 at 5:02 am
Upon reading all these nice letters in search of truth I was reminded of an occasion when I was both a young man and a young Christian in which I disagreed with a man who was trying to convert me to his church. Although I don’t remember the actual scripture it seemed to me it was one of those proof texts the special interpretation of which was important to his persuasion. Anyway, I disagreed with him and he accused me of “making a judgement”. He assumed his interpretation was truth and mine was in error and had uttered a judgement in response to his truth and God would punish me.
Now I’ve heard it said that if two people disagree over a scripture passage or Bible concept then one is wrong, or the other is wrong or both are wrong. Because God is right and the scripture still contains the same truth that it had before it was considered by these two lowly creatures of limited intelligence and sinful hearts.
But, you say, what if both are Christians and both ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit in interpreting the scripture and they still disagree? Well, the above is still true and the heart is desperately wicked. Maybe one or both have an agenda or preconceived notions about the true meaning of the passage that distort the truth. How can we always know our own heart? Look at the falling out of Paul and Peter. Also Paul and some of his co-workers, the latter because the Holy Spirit had other plans.
Now regarding the credentials of those whow would interpret the Bible. The Bible tells me I don’t need anyone other than the Holy Spirit to “lead me into all truth”. I can take my 1611 KJV and ask God to explain any part of it and He will. Is my understanding inferior because I use Word of God in the “King’s” language and not in the language in which it was written? Would it be superior if I knew all of these languages? Or would it be more than adequate for my needs in either case? This is not to downplay knowledge and skill of languages and their advantages and usefulness in Christian service and Christian education.
But avoid being dogmatic, watch the pride, read 1st Corinthians again, search the scriptures, be tolerant, listen to the other guy. If he can change your mind with an interpretation of scripture that weaves seamlessly into the whole fabric of the Bible then you should embrace what he says.
Herman
51 Anne // Aug 14, 2007 at 6:14 am
Dear Herman,
Thankyou for your views. I believe the Holy Spirit gave you a very special annointing to speak that Truth in Wisdom with Love. You have my appreciation.
Thanks be to God.
Isaiah 42:21
It was the Lord’s Pleasure for His righteousness sake to magnify instruction and revelation and Glorify them.
Now… if I can share with you good people a bit of my joy and humor from last night, just to lighten up a bit…
A tedious part of growing old for me has been how my eyesight has become increasingly worse. I don’t know how much worse, the last time I had them checked was five yrs ago. I just keep going to the Dollar Store and picking up glasses that magnify. I am using 2.25 now because so much of the written word is a total blur. They are really getting bad. No kidding. I can tell
because when I watch videos, I go without for a bit, then decide to put them on to see what I am missing.
Definition of object…….blur…blur…
Last night I went outside at around mid-night and was
flabergasted to look into the Heaven’s and see the stars shining forth so bold. Ooodles and oodles of stars. Isn’t it just amazing that our eyes can see hundreds of thousands of light years away, or miles. And add to that…..without my glasses; there was double vision of the glory of the Heavens. Twice as many stars as you might see.
‘Blessings in de-skies.’ Be sure to watch for them.
Anne
52 Marsha Carol Watson // Aug 14, 2007 at 6:26 am
Michael, you are still on the offensive. I do appreciate the scriptures and your comments. I love God’s Word. It is life and truth. It brings peace, love and joy to all who will take the time to read and study its truths. I have been an almost 2o year student of Bible Propecy. Eschatology is a very interesting study.
Michael, have you ever heard the Holy Spirit speak to you in an audible voice? I have. It was on December 4, 1999. When I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in 1992, it was the happiest time of my life. Since then, many wonderful things have happened in my life. I not only received the joy of the Lord, but several gifts of the Spirit, that have proved invaluable to my life, and my witness as a soul winner, but I have only heard the Holy Spirit speak audibly once. I hope I will again in my lifetime. He speaks to me in my spirit and reveals things to me…for this I am truly thankful. I have had one vision, it was in 1993,.I have had many dreams that He reveals things to me. The vision prepared me for something very important that was coming in my life.
So Michael, I keep my hand in the Hand of my Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ, because He has been…He is…and He always will be my Redeemer. “Who the Son sets free is free indeed.”
Heavenly Father, I thank you for Michael, and for his desire to serve you with all of his heart. Father, reveal yourself to Michael, as only you can do, and clear away anything that he might be confused about, so that he can reach his fullest potential in service to You and Your Kingdom. In the power and authority of the name of Jesus Christ, my Saviour and Lord, I pray. amen and amen
53 Michael // Aug 14, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Al,
First let me say I appreciate the discourse. It is how we learn. You asked:
Does this include the majority of the Sanhedrin i.e. Annas and Caiphas who rejected Messiah and turned Him over to the Romans to be crucified?
Annas and Caiaphas are mentioned only four times in the Scriptures and there is no proof they weere from the house of Judah or Israel. I fully understand that the priests were to be of the Levites making them of the house of Israel, however it is readily apparent they were practicing un-Godly activities and pagan rituals.
Jesus called them “hypocrites” and if He was using the exact meaning of the word, it is more then probable they were precisely what the word in Greek stands for. That being the Greek word “hupocrites” and meaning: actor of an assumed character. It is probable Jesus was saying they were not what they claimed to be. There is no other definitive way of knowing by the Scriptures.
God’s word says “ALL” (kol) of Israel will be saved so I am taking His Word at face value. Not my interpretation, precisely what His Spirit led men to record.
You also stated we are part of the commonwealth of Israel and I wholeheartedly disagree. The “commonwealth” of Israel is the nation state that was created by the UN in 1948 and has not one thing to do with the Israel God speaks of.
Israel is a “nation” (gowy) of people, not a land mas outlined by a UN resolution. Israel and the land God promised them are not one in the same. Every passage that speaks to “the land of Israel” speaks to that which is the ‘ara` or ‘erets that is the possession of the people called Israel. The land is the land, Israel is a people.
Nowhere in Scripture are we referred to as a part of Israel. The only inference states born again believers who by faith are “in Christ” are now of the seed of Abraham and inheritors of the promise. We are not inheritors of the land God promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we are inheritors of the heavenly Jerusalem as seen in Galatians 4:26. Our inheritance is a spiritual inheritance of the Kingdom of God seen in James 2:5;
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
The statement made by Paul from Colossians 3:11 or Galatians 3:28 is not speaking of the flesh we presently inhabit. It is speaking to a Spirtual being that has been “born again” and is indwelt by His Spirit just as Colossians 3:10 & 11 state. Belivers in Jesus as the true Christ of God have His Spirit placed in them replacing our old spirit and are new creations.
Marsha,
Yes I do hear His Spirit audibly. He speaks to me almost regularly and because His Spirit lives in me, it is an ongoing spiritual conversation as 1 Thes. 5:17 calls us to do.
Thank you for the kind words and if I sound defensive, it is only that I defend His truth as it was inspired.
YBIC,
Michael
54 Michael // Aug 14, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Ryan,
I was wondering if you were going to start a sepearate blog on Jacob’s Trouble as you stated? I believe it would be great to look into that subject since so many seem to overlook it when studying Israel and end times prophecy.
YBIC,
Michael
55 Ryan // Aug 14, 2007 at 1:13 pm
I will open a new thread specifically regarding Jacob’s Trouble in the coming days.
56 Michael // Aug 14, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Thanks. It should be very interesting.
YBIC,
Michael
57 Michael // Aug 14, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Al,
I wanted to add one thing regarding your question about the possibility the Sanhedrin and Annas and Caiaphas. If, in fact, they were truly from the line of Levi, making them of the “whole house of Israel” then it goes without saying, they too would be resurrected and saved.
I got to thinking and praying on the subject and it dawned on me that even at the cross did not the Lord say:
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Lk. 23:34.
And since we are told those who gave Him to be crucified were there, He was asking God to forgive them. We know it was “all the people” who gave Him up as recorded in Mt. 27:25;
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children
So it would seem to me that even if the entire Sanhedrin were truly of the house, or lineage, of Jacob (Israel) they too will be saved. That’s what God’s Word says in Romans 11:26 and Ezekiel 37:1 & 39:25.
If they were “hupocrites” and were merely acting the part of Levite priests, which is possible yet highly unlikely, then I do not see one verse that would include them in the house of Israel and the promise from God. Not unless they became believers after they crucified Him, but, we just do not know the answer to that.
Great question though. Things like that get one thinking, thanks.
YBIC,
Michael
58 David // Aug 14, 2007 at 8:06 pm
I for one, believe that the entire world is blind as to what is coming Our way.
It is “My Belief”, that we are now entering The Tribulation / Time of Jacob’s Trouble, (They are both one & the same).
I also believe that “Michael // Aug 10, 2007 at 4:29 pm” is in vast error in his post, for Romans 10: & 11: is addressed to Israel, & not the “Jews” only. In fact,……….when the book of James was written after the book of Acts, James made it clear that at that time, not all of Israel was present in the land of Israel!:
Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
The House of Israel & The House of Judah have yet to be re-united >> Hebrews 8: & these verses also confirm that:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
IS NOT PREACHING THE WORD STILL GOING ON?
Ezekiel 37: gives even more insight:
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
NO Brothers & Sisters,………….The Time of Jacob’s Trouble is soon to fall upon America, Great Britain, & the land of Israel.
59 outspoken2 // Aug 14, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Between Bush and Rice, Israel has not the friend it once had. America has rejected GOD on to many times, so GOD has let America have a very unstable mind unable to make sound judgment calls. Bush and Rice are sleeping with the enemy for the sake of OIL. REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY has done it’s damage and America will suffer for it.
60 Michael // Aug 14, 2007 at 9:09 pm
David,
I’m curious about your statement:
I also believe that “Michael // Aug 10, 2007 at 4:29 pm” is in vast error in his post,
How so? Can you be more specific or is this just a blanket statement you like?
You stated you believe we are heading into the “time of Jacob’s trouble.” What evidence is there to substantiate that?
I am not trying to attack you, I am tryng to understand the statement you made because I do not follow what you are attempting to illustrate.
Another individual swiped at me with the same response and when asked to at least give me the benefit of where I am in error, as claimed, no response has been forthcoming. It’s pretty easy to say “you are in error because I say so” but how about some evidence other than just a blanket accusation?
As I have stated before, If I am in error then as a proclaiming Brother in Christ, how about helping me out with a little more explanation?
YBIC,
Michael
61 Peter // Aug 14, 2007 at 9:46 pm
I think there is a confusion here on who is Israel and who is the Church cause I notice a lot of post where there is a separation or replacement theology.
-There is a typical replacement theology in the church and I can see a few hold to this belief that Israel and the Church are different or separate of each other.
-The scripture does not distinguish between the church and Israel… in fact the word ‘Church’ is derived from the Septuagint(Greek OT)… the word being ‘ekklesia’ which means in-gathering or community. With a careful study of the Tanakh you will find that the so called word ‘Church’ or ‘ekklesia’ is written of more in the Tanakh than in the New Testament and it always refers to Israel… uh ohHolds shield up to block against rocks lol :P.
-Please understand me, I do not believe in replacement theology I believe in being ‘Grafted In’. Let me give an example: A bus named Israel is traveling down the road with a bunch of Israelites on it and this bus is 3000 years old. Its passing by and I decide to join them(Having faith in the Messiah being Grafted In). NOT REPLACE.
-There is something we can take from this verse that is very important. In this verse Paul defines for us what a Israelite is:
Romans 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the [temple] service and the promises.
-Adoption belongs to Israelites, The Glory of God belongs to them, The covenants including the new covenant and all previous, The giving of Gods inspired word, The temple services (atonement) and the promises including the most important the Messiah.
-The new covenant stated both in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:8-12. Who was the covenant made with,,, the House of Israel and House of Judah. It was not made with the Gentiles. So what hope do we have .. im a Gentile. Well through the Messiah we are grafted in to Israel.
-Another thing to keep in mind is that The New Jerusalem is a memorial for Israel there is not a gentile gate or a church gate. It is not a memorial for the church sorry for those who had there hopes up.
-Throughout the biblical history gentiles have always been able to join Israel… it is nothing new. Examples Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted into Israel and were given two of the greatest blessings. Caleb was a gentile and was not only grafted in he was appointed leader over the tribe of Judah. There are so many more to name and obvious examples throughout all of scripture stating this.
God only has one people that is Israel (consisting both of Physical descent and non physical)
I hope this helps a few of you out and even now look at a lot of scriptures people so easily spit out and a lot of those will fall to the ground. Such as the pretrib rapture… Church is in Heaven while Israel is down one earth two thumbs down
Peter
62 Dr. Vinod Joseph // Aug 14, 2007 at 11:32 pm
All this points to the fact that we are racing everyday to the end of the age , and the important thing is that we should be ready for the second coming of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
63 Charles Wesley // Aug 15, 2007 at 2:57 am
AMEN Dr. Vinod Joseph
64 Marsha Carol Watson // Aug 15, 2007 at 6:09 am
Dr. Vinod Joseph, Thank you for reminding us of this great truth. You have doted every “i” and crossed every “t”.
I am excited about His forthcoming….I long for His appearing. After my stepfather died in 1996 (my father died in 1964–a military vet) my mother was so broken and grieved….both my father and my stepfather were most precious to us. They both died on July 24th all those many years apart. We thought this had to be more than coincidence…
Mother and I were sitting in her family room…she was in such despair. She said: “I feel that the Lord has left me, and I just don’t understand it…I have loved Him since childhood. I used to hear Him call me when I was a small child.”
All of a sudden Mother raised up in her recliner…her grief left instantly….she smiled a smile I have never seen before or since and said with joy: “Can you see Him?” I said who mama? She said: “It is Jesus! He is under the large light in the center of the room….His feet aren’t touching the floor….but He is right there! He is just there and He is not touching the floor…..He has just spoken to me and said: I HAVEN’T LEFT YOU….”
She said: ” He has the most beautiful, soft blue eyes….gentle eyes. ” She said: “Some pictures show him with brown eyes—-they are not brown, they are a beautful blue.”
With that mother rose out of her recliner smiling the most beautiful smile. She said: “Let’s go into the kitchen and fix something to eat….I am hungry all of a sudden….”
Mama’s spirit of grief left her, and she was okay. She was able to bear her heartache after the Master told her He had not left here.
That was 1996. It has been eleven years…Mama is now 87, and continues to be a blessing to all who know her. When she prays for someone, Heaven opens and things happen……
65 Michael // Aug 15, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Peter,
While your analogy seems fitting, I believe it is verging on replacement theology in somewhat a reverse manner. The “covenant” in Jesus Christ was rejected by Israel and thus was given to the Gentiles to completed God’s plan of salvation for all mankind, whoever would come to that covenant.
The verse from Romans has been taken somewhat out of context in that, in and of itself, it seems to suggest what you are stating, however in looking at the entire passage we see an entirley different theme.
Paul being of the tribe of Benjamin and an Israelite himself, is speaking of the “huiothesia” or in English, the”adoption” or being made sons by God’s choice through Isaac, not all the seed from Abraham. Paul is trying to explain simply that the choice made by God that Abraham and the seed by Isaac were “huiothesia” (made sons) when He chose them to be such seen in Gen. 17:19.
Paul is making the point that in the seed of Jacob (Israel) are the promises of God and that not all who claim to be Israel (seed of Esau) are such. Paul is lamenting over the fact that Israel has been “cut off” because of unbelief and he states he himself would give his salvation in Christ back for the sake of his people, the house of Israel, that they too might receive salvation. v.2.
Nice analogy about the bus driving by, but, when the Gentiles were at the bus stop and the bus came by, there were only a very few Israelites on the bus. The whole people were not, only the disciples and a few others who had come to faith in Christ.
The new covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8 has yet to be implemented as verse 10 states;
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Verse 13 clearly states that covenant has not yet been established with Israel;
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Pau states it is “ready to vanish” which means the new covenant has not at that point passed to Israel and will not until the prophecy from Romans 11:25 comes to fulfillment.
Hebrews 8:10 and 10:16 is a direct quote of Jeremiah 31:33 and is yet a future event “after those days” being Jacob’s trouble.
Caleb was not a Gentile he was of the tribe of Judah as stated in Nu. 13:16;
Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
The only other Caleb is seen in 1 Ch. 2:9 and is the son of Hezron. Hezron is the son of Pharez (Gen. 46:12) who is also the son of Judah.
And the sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah, and Pharez, and Zarah: but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan. And the sons of Pharez were Hezron and Hamul.
Ephraim and Manesseh were not adopted, they were Joseph’s sons.
Talk about just “spitting out” Scriptures.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
66 Michael // Aug 15, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Typo correction.
Caleb was mentioned in Numbers 13:6, not 13:16. Sorry for the typo.
YBIC,
Michael
67 James Staten // Aug 15, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Caleb’s name means dog. I have spoken with a jewish gentleman, who has a Christian ministry. That is the question that is up for debate. Several Bible scholars through the years have stated that Caleb was gentile. J R Church and Gary Stearman who are greek and hebrew scholars say he is gentile. My jewish friend says no jewish person would name their child a dog. He quoted several Rabbi’s who concur that Caleb was gentile.
68 Michael // Aug 15, 2007 at 5:18 pm
James,
I don’t know why anybody would think Caleb was a Gentile when it is clear in God’s Word, both men called Caleb were in fact, blood relatives of Judah.
While there are also two men named Jephunna, who was Caleb’s father, Numbers 13:6 states quite clearly that Caleb was of the tribe of Judah.
The second Caleb is definitely the great grandson of Judah as seen in Gen. 46:12.
The notion no Israelite would name their son Caleb because it means “dog” is pretty much made moot by the fact Judah’s grandson Hezron named his son Caleb. That makes even that Caleb a 100% Israelite from the seed of Jacob.
YBIC,
Michael
69 Ryan // Aug 15, 2007 at 5:21 pm
I have never heard that theory that the Caleb of the Exodus period was a Gentile. But I do personally know two Israelis named Caleb (calev in Hebrew), so it is a name that is used.
70 Anne // Aug 15, 2007 at 5:27 pm
I am going to squeak out where my mind has been through all this deciphering……..
First off, the fullness of the Gentiles could mean the first Pentecost.
To the Jews first. Yeshua saved all Israel on the cross. “Romans 12:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written (of old) pre Yeshua. This they were.
His People.
Then cometh the destruction of the temple and dispersion…..the undoing of the establishement of Jewish way of life in Israel..so that Yeshua’s influence was in the lives of many Jewish and Gentile peoples.
Temple worship was not reinstated. They were blinded only in part by not seeing Yeshua as Messiah
(not talking here of deniers, Jews who said they were Jews, but of the synogogue of Satan) “Ye are of the seed of thy Father, the devil.” Those are they to which there is no forgiveness for the rejection of the Holy Ghost, not their rejection of Yeshua.
And what about…..Daniel 12: 1 and 2
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
from old Israel to no Israel to God’s established time of fulfillment (he who has eyes to see and ears to hear) 1948.
even thy people shall be delivered every one that (shall be found written in the book)
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I’m thinking about these things.
Anne
71 James Staten // Aug 15, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Michael, I have a similar question for you. Was Dr. Luke a Jew or Gentile?
72 Michael // Aug 15, 2007 at 6:12 pm
James,
Luke is only mentioned 3 times in the NT. Col. 4:14, 2 Tim. 4:11 and Philemon 1:24 as Lucas.
All accounts from early Christian writings such as the Muratorian Canon (170AD) and the writings of Irenaeus of Lyons (180AD) suggest Luke was born a Gentile and most likely from either Antioch in Syria or possibly Philippi.
There really is no difinitive information other than that. Good question though, thanks for asking. I hope this answers your question.
YBIC,
Michael
73 Mariel // Aug 15, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Who is a Jew? This is a greatly unresolved question, because the criteria for being Jewish has morphed over the centuries, largely because of people marrying Jews.
Israel for a long time accepted only persons born of a Jewish mother as Jews, but this is changing, new laws arising.
My husband was born of a gentile mom and Jewish dad, but not raised Jewish. He became a Christian through the only church in his small town.
Yet many people, if they think of his “race” at all, think of him as sorta Jewish.
I was born to agnostics, but became first a Christian, then a Jew, then moved back in my allegiance to Christ. Am I still a Jew because I converted thirty years ago, and then came back to Christ?
Furthermore, people with my genetic background, which includes having the DNA for Porphyria, often have ancient Jewish blood, even if modern ancestors are unaware of it. How much Jewish blood makes one a Jew? My ratio is quite unknown, since Porphyria usually gets going by intermarriage of “porphs” down the years. It could be a lot or a smidgen.
At this point I prefer to think of a Jew as a person who voluntarily accepts the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as his own God, whether or not that person has also accepted Christ. Because in history, way back to Moses’ time, there were untold converts. Out of Egypt came not only the blood children of Jacob but the “multitude” who chose to join them.
Then there are all the unfounded accusations that Kazarite Jews are “fake Jews.” Not only does this deny the validity of conversion, but it is untrue on another level, since many blood descendants of Jacob lived in Kazaria at the time they accepted the Hebrew faith. So they were a “mixed multitude” as were those who came out of Egypt.
Another way of thinking about “who is Jew”, which is not founded in science but in love, is that those who love God’s land and pray for it to prosper are in some sense Jews. They are part of the mixed multitude who came out of Egypt and still come.
Mariel
74 James Staten // Aug 15, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Michael, the reason I asked was because the scripture states that the oracles were given to the Jews. Now did the Lord need a gentile to give us the book of Luke and the book of Acts. There is a debate about Luke being a Greek Jew.
75 Michael // Aug 15, 2007 at 6:48 pm
James,
The “logion” (oralces) which were given Moses by God were the spoken commandments by God, as the Greek “logion” indicates.
Those “words” Moses penned were just as God ordained him to write as seen in Ex. 34:27.
Orace simply means spoken word or uttered word.
You ask did God need Luke, a Gentile, to give us the book of Luke and possibly the book of Acts? Not to sound blunt but the question is made moot n that He DID use Luke.
The same would apply to Saul of Tarsus. Saul was a Benjamite (Rom. 11:1, Phil. 3:5) a Roman citizen (Acts 22:25) and a Pharisee (Acts 23:6). Did God need to make a Jew whowas a Roman and Pharisee to be the Apostle to the Gentiles?
Whether we believe God “needed” to or not, really should not even be an issue. God chose to do so, so I guess by deduction He “needed” to so His purpose was accomplished just as He ordained it must be.
I don’t know why so many find a need to debate subjects like whether or not Luke was a Jew, a Gentile or just a plain old heathen. Jesus saw fit to call him so, that is all I need to concern myself with. And once Luke became a believer, well the following makes moot any further need to debate he issue from Col. 3:11;
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Hopefully this answers your question James.
YBIC,
Michael
76 James Staten // Aug 15, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Food for Thought..Jephunneh, father of Caleb the spy, appears to have belonged to an Edomitish tribe called Kenezites, from Kenaz their founder. Esau’s oldest son Eliphaz became the leader of clans one of which was Kenaz. Joshua 14:6-15, Numbers 32:12, Gen. 32:12, and Gen. 36:15.That was a quick google..Jesus is coming..Keep Looking Up
77 Michael // Aug 15, 2007 at 8:35 pm
James,
Good research. Try www.biblegateway.com and www.crosswalk.com as two real good quick search tools.
I also use a number of other sources for Hebrew and Greek that I have on my hard drive. A real ggod free online Genealogical search is www.complete-bible-genealogy.com. If you select my name and then scroll down to LINKS on my website you’ll find a myriad of onerful links to search tools from Hebrew to Islam.
It appears there are two men named Jephunnah. The man named Jephunneh in 1 Ch. 7:38 is a direct descendant of Jacob through Asher.
Kenaz means “hunter” and was the grandson of Esau by Eliphaz. So it does appear one man named Caleb came from the seed of Esau and is not blood related to Isaac or Jacob.
The problem is that the statement made above by Peter that Caleb the Gentile became ruler of the house of Judah after being adopted in is false. The Caleb who is seen in 1 Ch. 2:9 is the grandson of Judah.
And the statement the gentile Caleb of the Kenezites becoming ruler over Judah is also false. Caleb endeared himself to Joshua because in Numbers 32:12 the Lord says he and Joshua “wholly” followe d the Lord in what they did as spies.
Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
When Joshua was dividing the land seen in Joshua 14:6 we see Caleb reminding him the promise God made to him.
Then Caleb is given his portion of land in Joshua 15:13 but he is never spoken of as being “adopted” into the line of Judah or given rule over that house. He was allowed to live in the land amongst the tribe of Judah, nothing more.
What Caleb was given was the fields of the city of Arba and the villages that surrounded Arba as seen in Joshua 21:9-122;
9And they gave out of the tribe of the children of Judah, and out of the tribe of the children of Simeon, these cities which are here mentioned by name.
10: Which the children of Aaron, being of the families of the Kohathites, who were of the children of Levi, had: for theirs was the first lot.
11: And they gave them the city of Arba the father of Anak, which city is Hebron, in the hill country of Judah, with the suburbs thereof round about it.
12: But the fields of the city, and the villages thereof, gave they to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for his possession.
The key is that the statement he was “adopted” into the house of Judah and became ruler over that house is totally inaccurate based on God’s Word.
YBIC,
Michael
78 Peter // Aug 15, 2007 at 9:53 pm
I am afraid you are wrong in many places Michael…
You obviously have not read this chapter cause you missed some very clear elements.
Numbers 13:2-3
Send out for yourself men so that they may spy out the land of Canaan, which I am going to give to the sons of Israel; you shall send a man from each of their fathers’ tribes, every one a LEADER among them.”So Moses sent them from the wilderness of Paran at the command of the LORD, all of them men who were HEADS of the sons of Israel.
So yes he was a leader…
Second the Caleb of ‘Numbers’ was the Son of Jephunneh and he was a Kennezite… do a little research and you will find that a Kennezite was not a Israelite, but someone from Arabia… scholars assume from Syria.
“”The verse from Romans has been taken somewhat out of context in that, in and of itself, it seems to suggest what you are stating, however in looking at the entire passage we see an entirley different theme.”"
- Paul in context was referring to his Fleshly brothers, All i said was at least he defines what an israelite is.
“”"Paul being of the tribe of Benjamin and an Israelite himself, is speaking of the “huiothesia” or in English, the”adoption” or being made sons by God’s choice through Isaac, not all the seed from Abraham. Paul is trying to explain simply that the choice made by God that Abraham and the seed by Isaac were “huiothesia” (made sons) when He chose them to be such seen in Gen. 17:19.”"”
-You are reading to much of your own interpretation into the scriptures.
Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8 these are both the same and I agree they have not been fully implemented for the fact that is says everyone man will know the Lord.
Being the greek and hebrew reader you are im confused on how you missed this:
Paul states it is “ready to vanish” which means the new covenant has not at that point passed to Israel and will not until the prophecy from Romans 11:25 comes to fulfillment.
Wrong, the context in Hebrews 8 is not on a new and old covenant, but on the First High Priest Hood and New High Priest hood. Read the very beginning of Hebrews 8 it is all summed up, THIS IS THE CONTEXT—Hebrews 8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
If your translation says covenant im sorry you have a bad translation cause the greek does not… do some research.
“”Ephraim and Manesseh were not adopted, they were Joseph’s sons.”"
Your right they are the sons of Josesph and Jacob adopted them as his sons. I recommend you go read the story again cause you missed that part.
Peter
79 James Staten // Aug 15, 2007 at 10:17 pm
Michael, I have another question for you. In II Thess. 2:3 , What is your understanding of the falling away first in that portion of scripture?
80 Michael // Aug 15, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Peter,
You made the statement:
Caleb was a gentile and was not only grafted in he was appointed leader over the tribe of Judah.
You made it clear Caleb was “appointed leader over the tribe of Judah.” He was not “leader over the tribe of Judah.”
He might have been a “nasiy’” or leader of some sort, he was not THE leader of the ribe of Judah as you stated. Your implicatio is that he was THE head over the entire tibe and that is what I am saying is wrong Peter.
You stated:
Wrong, the context in Hebrews 8 is not on a new and old covenant, but on the First High Priest Hood and New High Priest hood.
Jesus was only the minister of the new covenant. The subject matter of Hebrews 8 is the new covenant, not some first and second priesthood Peter. Paul even states Israel “continued not” in the first covenant.
Hebrews 8:7-10;
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Paul is only making the point that Jesus is the minister of the true “tabernacle” the Lord pitched, not the temple made with hands. The true tabernacle is the hearts of men as spoken to in 1 Cor. 3:16, 1 Pet. 2:5 and Eph. 2:21.
No Peter I do not have a bad translation of Hebrews 8, it is from the original Greek an the subject is the two covenants. I totally disagree with your assumption.
Nowhere in Scripture does it state Jacob adopted Ephraim and Manasseh Peter. Even if by some stretch Jacob did, it is moot because they were born of the seed from Jacob since Joseph was Jacob’s first son with Rachel. Gen 35:24. If they were adpoted by Jacob it does not change one thing being they are his seed to begin with Peter.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
81 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 12:17 am
Peter,
Your question is a good one and it is very difficult to really put a solid definition on it as the word “apostasia” is used but twice in the NT. Once here and once in Acts 21:21 speaking f actually turning away from the physical practice of circumcision.
Personally I believe it is highly possible it speaks to the “catching away” and not some falling away from faith. Luke 8:13 is translated in English to say “fall away” and is speaking directly of falling away from faith and the word used there is “aphistemi.”
8:13; They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away (aphistemi).
It is used again in Hebrews 3:12 in the same form speaking again of falling from faith:
3:12; Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing (aphistemi) from the living God.
I guess my why would Paul, the author of all the above, use the verb “aphistemi” instead of “apostasia” in two identical passages speaking of “falling away” from or “departing” from faith and then use another verb that in it’s only other reference speaks to the physical departure from a physical practice?
If Paul was speaking of “falling away” from faith in 2 Thes. 2:3, why did he not use the same word he had already used in describing that event?
My take is it is speaking of the removal of the body before the human of the son of destruction is “apokalupto” or unvieled or uncovered.
I might be wrong James but, what I know of Greek and verb useage, it makes no sense the same author would use an entirely different word in describing an identical event that he has already used no less than twice.
I hope this helps you understand what I believe this passage is saying James.
YBIC,
Michael
82 James Staten // Aug 16, 2007 at 12:28 am
Amen, Kenneth Weist, whom many claim to be the greatest NT scholar of the 20th century, claims it is the catching away. The word is as a mode of travel, being here one second and somewhere else the next. As in physical movement. The Rapture of the Church. Even So Come, Lord Jesus
83 Peter // Aug 16, 2007 at 12:34 am
Michael,
In the verse it does say Heads of the sons of Israel. Meaning each one they chose was the head of the Tribe. I think that is pretty clear. I don’t see why you can see that. Also considering Caleb was a Gentile and he was of the tribe of Judah that seems to indicate that some how he was grafted in. Just put the pieces the together.
Jesus was only the minister of the new covenant. The subject matter of Hebrews 8 is the new covenant, not some first and second priesthood Peter. Paul even states Israel “continued not” in the first covenant.
Here you are confusing the covenant with the priest hood again. At the beginning of Hebrews 8 he is speaking of the High Priest.
And you quoted scripture wrong:
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
In the GREEK it says ‘for if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.’
Translators have added covenant there which actually changes the whole context. In fact in context it is speaking of the priesthood.
Let me break it down for you:
7For if that first had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8For finding fault with them, He says,
For Find fault with who, the covenant, NO, them the Priesthood because that is the context of verses 1-8.
Them is not a covenant.
Again in verse 13
13When He said, “A new,” He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
It does not say covenant in Greek. That has been added to scripture by translators.
Here is where the adoption occurs:
Jacob is speaking to Joseph here in verse 5.
5″Now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are.
-Notice he says your two sons(Ephraim and Manasseh) are mine(Jacobs) then he says what they shall be he says that will be equal heirs just as Reuben and Simeon are… Basically Josephs brothers. Not just descendents of Jacob as you so easily assume, but actually sons equal.
And more.
6″But your offspring that have been born after them shall be yours; they shall be called by the names of their brothers in their inheritance.
Notice Ephraim and Manasseh have become Jacobs sons, but any other sons Joseph has will be Josephs, but not Ephraim and Manasseh.
Your misunderstanding of scripture is hindering a lot for your interpretations.
Peter
84 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 12:52 am
Peter,
We’ll just have to disagree on this one. I see the statements being made in verse 6 regarding the “kreitton eimi diatheke” (better is COVENANT0 being the antecedent subject matter Paul is speaking to in verse 7 when he says:
For if that first (covenant) had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
The same subject is covered again in Hebrews 12:24;
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
You see a priesthood, I see the two covenants. One day it will be known to both what exactly the truth is. Until then keep searching.
James,
I think that assessment fits much closer to the intent of the author. Hopefully we are right and it is SOON!
YBIC,
Michael
85 peter // Aug 16, 2007 at 2:00 am
Michael,
That’s fine we can disagree… I just want to bring one other thing in Hebrews just for consideration.
Lets assume covenant even though its not.
Hebrews 8:7
7For if that first had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
If this is truly saying that ‘the first (Covenant) had been faultless… Then this is saying that God screwed up the first time and hes sending His Son to fix His mess.
I really don’t think God made a faulty covenant…
This is just another reason of many why I believe it is speaking of the first High Priesthood according to Aaron that was faulty being replaced by the True High Priest Jesus.
I’ve enjoyed conversing with you on this subject and many more.
peter
86 peter // Aug 16, 2007 at 2:03 am
I meant to say…
If this is truly saying that ‘the first (Covenant) had been faulty… Then this is saying that God screwed up…
Again I think man screwed up and Gods covenants were/are perfect… we broke them and still do today.
peter
87 Deb // Aug 16, 2007 at 3:50 am
Oh my, reading this is exhausting!
Returning (roughly) to the original point “The Days of Noah.” Ryan quoted Matthew 24, and most often when I hear this topic discussed, it stops there, but in Luke 17: 28-29, having made the same statement about the days of Noah, it goes futher and says:
“Likewise, as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built: but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.”
As in the days of Noah, also in the days of Lot we see apathy, as Ryan originally pointed out. Others have explored the implications of the relative relationship to “exit” (in an Ark, from the city - or in the harpazo?) to immediate destruction coming on those who remained. As Luke 17:30 says “Even so, it will be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”
I have been taught to look at what characterized the “Days of Noah” and what characterized the “Days of Lot” and recognize those as “signs of the times” just before the Lord comes. In essence, the Days of Noah were when “the wickedness of every man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only on evil continuously.” - Gen. 6:5. That could be said of many eras and generations, but the characteristic that was unique in the scripture occurred in the days of Lot, and was widespread, agressive, even violent homosexuality.
Yeshua said to look for both of those things together as the sign of His coming.
(By the way, regarding the name and origin of Caleb, if you can get a copy of Derek Prince’s sermon “Caleb: A Dog’s Life,” it gives some fine insight into some of the things you were discussing.)
88 Nerah // Aug 16, 2007 at 10:08 am
Michael,
If a bus is driving by full of jewish people most of the world would refuse to get on or blow it up. this is the sad thing! What would you do? As a grafted in believer do you stand with the Jewish people at all costs? A big part of us being grafted in is standing with them as family, riding the bus with them, all of them because they need Yeshua as much as we do. To the Jew first.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (financial support, etc.)
We are indebted to them.
also the word G1525
εἰσέρχομαι
eiserchomai
ice-er’-khom-ahee
From G1519 and G2064; to enter (literally or figuratively): - X arise, come (in, into), enter in (-to), go in (through).
notice this can be figurative not just literal. To me this is just talking about the day coming upon us that the gentiles are no longer the focus, because we are to provoke the jews to jealousy so they will be saved. YHWH’s covenant was with the Jews. If you take all scriptures together there is not much proof of pretrib.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
could this be Yeshua past tense and the Jewish people being cut off from the covenant ie.. kârath: to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume; specifically to covenant (that is, make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces): - be chewed, be con- [feder-] ate, covenant,
and then to die
H1478
גּוע
gâva‛
gaw-vah’
A primitive root; to breathe out, that is, (by implication) expire: - die, be dead, give up the ghost, perish.
could this be a figuritive breath out as in lose the spirit of God, such it seems possible in Job and other places:
Job 29:18 Then I said, I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand.
Temporarily until the time of gentiles is over. or it could be a past tense event of jewish people actually dieing. Just putting some thoughts out there.
89 Nerah // Aug 16, 2007 at 10:16 am
I do believe whether Jew or Gentile if you are evil and you refuse to turn to Yeshua that you will be taken out, however I believe the Jewish people will recognize thier Messiah. It is the “Christians” I am worried about who will have to go through the tribulation (atleast in part) and aren’t prepared.
Ezekiel 37 is definitely about Israel returning to the land, that much i will stand on for sure. It seems to me that most of what you believe does go along with the usual pretrib. gentiles get raptured and most of the Jews die theory. To me that theory has an awful lot of arrogance for us to hold over the People who YHWH made His covenant with Forever. No offense intended.
blessings
תמך
90 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 11:11 am
Peter,
First let me say I look forward to more discussions with you. That is how we learn.
I disagree regarding the two covenants because the second was implemented prior to the first. It was “confirmed” in heaven between God and His Christ 430 years before the covenant of the law was even given to Moses. Follow along.
In Gen. 46:3 God makes a promise to Jacob before the whole of Israel goes to egypt.
And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:
The same promise/covenant is seen in Galatians 3:17;
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Again it is spoken to in Galatians 4:24 & 25 pointing to the bastard seed from Abraham’s son Ishmael;
24: Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25: For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
The promise/covenant made to Jacob based on God’s promise/covenant to Abraham, of becoming a “great nation” was made 430 years before the covenant of the law was in existence on earth. That “great nation” is fully inclusive, by our adoption, of the Gentiles who come to faith in Jesus as the true Christ of God, and the seed of Israel by Abraham.
As Galatians 4:24 states, in an allegorical sense, anyone who refuses the “confirmed covenant” in Jesus, stands outside and will be judged by the law, or the first established covenant here on earth among men and in the flesh.
Romans 2:12;
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
But through faith in Jesus we are no longer under the law, but grace.
John 1:17 and Romans 6:14;
1:17; For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
6:14; For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
The two covenants spoken to are the first “confirmed in Christ” covenant that leads to salvation. The second the law because of transgression. The “confirmed in Christ” was the second on earth (first in heaven) that was confirmed at the cross, which by faith, disannuls the law (first on earth).
And as Paul states in Galatians 3:17, the law cannot disannul ( make moot) the first that was confirmed by Christ 430 years prior to that law being made here on earth.
BTW, Jesus was the confirmer of the covenant Gabriel spoke to Daniel of in Daniel 9:27.
YBIC,
Michael
91 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 11:27 am
Nerah,
I totally disagree with your assessment. Born again believers are the body of Christ whether Jew or Gentile as in Christ there is neither.
Gal. 3:28;
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The notion that Christians (both Jew and Gentile believers) will go through the ‘time of Jacob’s trouble” which most erroneously label “the great tribulation” is totally false.
1 Thes. 5:9;
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
That means any wrath. The wrath of Jesus (the lamb) Rev. 6:16, the wrath of Satan Rev. 12:12 and the wrath of God Rev. 16:1.
One wonderful point is that the “wrath” spoken of that comes from Jesus (the lamb) is identified in the Greek as “orge” 3709 and means to be angry but it is an anger that is meant to turn the recipient from what they are wongly doing. Sort of like what a parent does to correct an errant child.
The Greek used for “wrath” in speaking of both Satan and God is “thumos” 2372 which means all consuming fire.
Jesus’ “orge” is meant to give one last opportunity for unbelievers to come to Him by faith before the “thumos” of Satan and God are unleashed. How else do those seen in Rev. 20:4 gain salvation?
Nobody, Jew or Gentile, who have come to faith in Jesus, will be here to witness the “time of Jacob’s trouble” which is the time those wraths are visited upon this earth.
YBIC,
Michael
92 Frank // Aug 16, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Michael,
I agree with Peter! Your Greek spelling and Grammar indicates that you rely entirely on a Concordance of sorts. It may seem that the word covenant is the anticedent to what follows, but if the Greek is correctly translated it yields the following, which is a clear reference to the priesthood, for Yeshua is our Highpriest; e.g. “But now, a different ministry has come about, which is also a better covenant mediator that was given as Torah on better promises.” Heb 8:6. Therefore, the word protos (first) must refer to the priesthood mentioned in the earlier verses - especially v.1 where the writer is speaking of Yeshua Who becomes the mediator of the existing covenant. It is through this mediation (through His obedience & death) that the New Covenant comes about.
I am certain that the original writer had wanted the word covenant to be there he would have done so himself - not leave it to our educated guesses 2000 years later.
There is a lot of theology written into the translations, but not enough is translated contextually correct.
Shalom
Frank
93 Frank // Aug 16, 2007 at 12:44 pm
To Michael concerning the Rapture,
Throughout the centuries, true Christians have suffered grievously at the hands of the Roman Church, in the torture chambers and on the pyres of the Dominicans and Jesuits, as well as at the hands of kings and rulers. Did God remove the suffering church out of communist Russia, or China, or Rumania? No, rather He blessed them and made them strong! Even now, at the time of writing, Christians are persecuted and killed by fanatical Muslims and Hindus in various parts of the world. Tell me, is that not tribulation?
Did the Almighty prevent the Holocaust? Surely there must have been at least some Jewish children who would have merited some mercy from God instead of being smashed to pieces by some crazed SS man? Was this not tribulation for the Jewish people?
Or please tell me, what differentiates lukewarm Christians of today from lukewarm Jews of the time of Jesus (Rev.3:14-17)? Why would the same God, whom both worship send one lot into exile— and eventually into the Gas Chambers of Hitler, and bless the others with an all-expenses paid trip to heaven?
The idea of ‘raptured Christians’ to feast and celebrate in heaven while hellreigns on earth is utterly macabre and does not fit into the image of a God Who sent His Son to die on a cross that no-one should be lost!
I am not advocating martyrdom of any kind, but I am writing this, so that you may not be deceived. If the ‘secret’-rapture teachers are right, I have lost nothing, but I will rejoice at the great mercy of our God who would bestow such an unmerited favour upon us.
However, what if they are wrong and you enter that period of tribulation totally unprepared in your heart, will not your faith in God be greatly shaken and possibly cause you to fall away? The issue involved here is of fundamental significance. It is not a question, of which doctrine is more attractive, or whether there is a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture. Rather, are we adequately prepared to go through a similar ordeal the Jewish People went through at the hands of the Nazis, if the preachers of this ‘secret rapture’ theory are wrong?
If you steadfastly expect that there will be a ’secret’ rapture, how will you recognise the working of THE BEAST & THE FALSE PROPHET if that rapture does not eventuate? The effect of teaching the doctrine of a ‘Secret Rapture’ of the church is that it blinds Christians to what is really taking place. It renders them indifferent to world events and lulls them into a false sense of ‘everything is going to be OK because Jesus will take us out of here before things get too bad!’
The sum total of all this is that God will pronounce His judgment against a wicked humanity; an act that will strike terror in every unredeemed heart. In the midst of all this God will keep His people, who will come out of it shining like the stars. As the Apostle says, “Who shall separate us from the love of God?” (Rom.8:35).
Frank
94 Nathan // Aug 16, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Hi Michael, I agree with a lot of your interpretations concerning the house of Israel. I am of the belief howerever that the Americans are from the tribe of Manasseh
GENESIS 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it , my son, I know it : he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
I think this prophecy could pertain to England being Ephraim and the US being Manasseh, since Englend did branch into a multitude of nations (the commonwealth) coming first, then US did becime a great nation, and by the way I’m not American :) and trying to call myself great. Jacob certainly did bless these two tribes than most it would seem, and these two nations have been certainly blessed, so you americans and English might be Israelites after all!
Also later in Genesis 48 when Jacob is talking of the last days…
22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him , and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
This sounds very much like the nations of the US and the Commonwealth countries of Englend (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa etc) Would be very interested to hear your thoughts, in case I am missing something.
God bless
Nathan
95 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Frank,
Perhaps you then might explain what God means by the following:
Jeremiah 30:4-7;
4:And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5: For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6: Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7: Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
A day so “great” that none is like it. A “day” He has named “Jacob’s trouble.” A “day” Zechariah tells us a “fountain” shall be opened against Israel for their sins in which 2/3 will be killed.
Zech. 13:1, 8 & 9;
1: In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Who might tha be in that “day?”
You can attempt to ridicule me for my studies and my tools, perhaps you have better tools, I do not know. For simplicity of understanding for those who do not study in Hebrew and Greek who might read these posts, it is the easiest way to give them a little more insight. Forgive me if it does not meet whatever you use as your own standard. At least I am digging deeoper and learning. If that does not meet with your approval, that is your problem not mine. What I do know is a blind man can see Gad has NOT ordained believers in Christ to suffer wrath. His words, not mine.
The position you take falls in line with those who believe they must DO something to gain some position of worthiness and that is false. The only thing we need to gain worthiness is faith in Jesus as the Christ of God. Our salvation is by His Grace and our faith ALONE just as seen in Romans 3:26-28;
26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
All you do is argue what you think is correct and tell me I am wrong based on your position minus any passage that might justify what you want others to believe. All I have done is quote passages that support what I fully believe His Spirit inspired.
Believe that which you choose. However it is not prudent to call someone in error just because that is what you think.
Michae
96 Nathan // Aug 16, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Something I forgot to mention…
Why would Jacob say “let my name be named on them” (GENESIS 48:16) when speaking of Ephraim and Manasseh, if they were already already of him. It may be that he is placing his name onto these two tribes for a reason, to help us decipher prophecy, and it may be that “jacobs trouble” is referring to these two tribes in particular. And just so I’m not misinterpreted in my last past when saying England and the commonwealth came before the US, I meant simply England.
And for anybody interested, Jesus followed God’s sabbath the same day as the jews of his day, the seventh day, not the first.
EXODUS 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is , and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
God bless
97 Nathan // Aug 16, 2007 at 2:54 pm
also typo in my first post the second quote from scripture is from Genesis 49, not 48
98 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Nathan,
The only trouble with that analogy of “Jacob’s trouble” is Manasseh and Ephraim are only two of the men who became half tribes. That leaves out the other 11 who are “Jacob” or Israel.
I do not believe that England or the USA are any part of the bloodline from Jacob. More than likely they are from the line of Japheth as stated in the definition from Strongs:
the 3rd son of Noah whose descendants after the flood settled on the coastal lands of the Mediterranean spreading north into Europe and parts of Asia.
Japheth’s sons were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras (Gen. 10:2). These mens’s sons were known to scatter to the north an probably Europe as well long before Abraham’s children were even born.
Forgive me if Strongs does not suit everybodies favor, it does sum up nicely what most other scholars have surmised.
Wat you are ststing smacks somewhat of replacement theology Nathan and I would caution against that.
YBIC,
Michael
99 James Staten // Aug 16, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Secret Rapture: First the rapture is not a secret the Apostle Paul gives us things to watch for. Without a doubt the scriptures make it very clear that the feasts of Israel are a picture of the Messiah. A picture of the shadow and substance of things to come. On First fruits Jesus was resurrected and during this same time frame dead people came back to life and wandered around Jerusalem. (Short Version) What happened to those resurrected people. 40 days after First fruits and 10 days before Pentacost the Lord ascended to the Throne Room of Heaven and as he ascended, he led captivity captive. Paul tells us one day the dead in Christ will rise first, then. Then implies a time frame and then we who are alive will be transformed in a moment a twinkling of an eye. The Lord made a convenant with his body that was the secret, the mystery if you will. This picture of the convenant is for the Church, neither Jew nor Gentile a new creation. Look for the Peace treaty Daniel 9:24-27..We will leave here before the man of sin is revealed and the peace convenant is confirmed. Watch therefore and comfort one another with these words. One thing is for sure the lord is no longer mad at those whose intended wrath was placed on the Passover Lamb. There is no comparison between the trials and tribulations of life and the coming time frame of Daniel’s 70th week. The remaining 70th week is determined on the Jewish people and on the city of Jerusalem. So watch for the dead to rise then on the horizon the peace treaty moving toward confirmation, then on a coming Pentacost the two witness’ start their ministry of the soon coming Messiah and that a pact was made with death and hell (False Messiah) as the world moves through the remaing feasts of Israel during the Tribulation period. I admit this is a little choppy, but there is some meat here. Jesus is coming
100 James Staten // Aug 16, 2007 at 4:11 pm
One other thing: Without a doubt there are two items today that if mentioned become fighting material. The first is the rapture. Probably 70 % of the Church today will scoff at the idea. Peter tells us in the last days people will scoff at the sign of his coming and the second which is probably by degree as far as the world is concerned worst. The Lord didn’t really give that Land to the Jewish people for ever. The Church (most) and the world don’t believe this promise, but it is when the world starts dividing up this land, particularly the Temple Mount that God’s wrath is revealed. Keep Looking Up, Jesus is Coming
101 Peter // Aug 16, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Michael,
Jeremiah 30:4-7;
Is speaking of Israel… So you can not use this verse for the church if you don’t believe the church is Israel.
Also this would seem to contradict Zechariah if 2/3 are going to die. Either they are going to be saved out of it or they are going to die… which one do you want it to be?
Peter
102 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 5:07 pm
James,
Here’s some news for you. There will be no peace deal and there is no seven year “trib.”
The first half of the 70th week “determined” for Israel was Jesus’ earthly 3 1/2 year ministry. The second “half” is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” that is only “time, times and a half” pr “dividing” as seen in Dan. 7:25, 12:7.
Jesus is the “HE” of the confirmed covenant spoken to Daniel by Gabriel. The “sanctuary” (qodesh) that was destroyed (shachath) was Jesus just as seen in John 2:21;
But he spake of the temple of his body.
The people responsible were not the Romans under Titus, but, Israel as seen in Mt. 27:25;
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Ezekiel 13:10 & 16 state implicitly there will be no peace. Not until the “Prince of Peace” (Isa. 9:6) returns and brings the whole hiouse of Israel out of their graves and breathes life into them and puts His Laws on their hearts (Ez. 36 & 37).
Go here: http://p103.ezboard.com/fwonderfulonefrm14.showMessage?topicID=292.topic
And just take some time to read. The “sound doctrine” that was turned from after more than 1,800 years that every Bible Scholar followed, wa clear on this. Not until the heretical teachings of John Nelson Darby and Sir Robert Anderson were published, was this “sound doctine” not endured.
Jesus is the “HE” and Israel were the “people of the prince to come” that Gabriel told Daniel about. That was the lament of Daniel and the coming prince Who would bring salvation was the subject.
Rememer the “weeks” were determined upon whom? Israel. The six items Gabriel told Daniel that were to be accomplished had not one thing to do with Satan or his human mouth, the false prophet. The entireprophecy is for Israel and her Redeemer.
YBIC,
Michael
103 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Peter,
I am not saying the Church is spoken to in Jeremiah. The passag is directed entirely at Israel (Jacob), that is why it is called “Jacob’s trouble.”
If you would read Ezekiel 36 and 37 you will see how Israel will be saved. They are not “saved” from what is seen in Zechariah, they will be saved from the second death and eternal separation from God.
Even though 2/3 will die a physical death, it is clear from Ezekiel 37:11 it is the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel.
Every human being from the seed of Jacob (Israel), will be reurrected and have life breathed back into them. God makes it succinctly clear He will bring every one of that seed back to life and put His Spirit in them and they will finally know He is God and they will be His people.
I am not making it both ways Peter. The body of born again believers called the “church” are taken away as seen in Rev. 12 as the woman in the wilderness.
Jacob’s trouble is meant for Israel and his punishment as seen n Hosea 12:2.
You have misunderstood what I have been saying Peter. Go back and read it. Israel WILL be punished but they will be brought back to life during the 1,000 year reign just as Ezekiel 36 and 37 state.
After that God let’s Satan out and one last event finishes off all who still stand against Israel in the Gog event of Ez. 38 & 39, just as Rev. 20:7 & 8 state.
Israel stands alone as the elect people of God. The born again believers (Jew and Gentile, all are one) prior to the coming Jacob’s trouble are taken away. We are grafted in to the promise of Abraham and become as his seed, not the seed of Jacob. Gal. 3:29;
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Hopefully this clears this up. It is not how I want it Peter, it is how God’s Word lays it out.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
104 Richard A Falasconi // Aug 16, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Greetings all, and Shalom
There seems to be a tremendous amount of grief and disparity about the time of Jacobs trouble and the [supposed] coming of some 3 and a half year tribulation.
Understanding the book of Daniel, and Ezekiel, and taking them at face value, one must understand that ALL these prophetic words were written for us who ‘have an ear’ to see clearly, not in disagreement but in peace and quiet understanding.
YHVH Elohim speaks in riddles, but will NEVER confuse us or trick or mislead us.
A dear brother of mine, Ellis Skolfield has penned a number of excellent works on this very subject, and I encourage ALL here to go get his books on the False Prophet, Bifids and Chiasms, ( if you do not know what a bifidic or chiasmic scripture are, I suggest that you learn before continuing on as a prophecy ‘expert’) .
All these are available as a .pdf file through a direct link from my site or visit Ellis’ site here: http://www.ellisskolfield.com/downloadable-books.shtml
Happy, eye - opening reading….
and
Blessings Ryan.
Hope to see you in Yerushalayim again in Sept.
In Yeshua
Richard
105 Peter // Aug 16, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Michael,
I disagree, one it is speaking of the House of Israel which is not in the land…As of today we know a lot of the House of Judah is there but not the House of Israel. So they cannot participate in the 2/3… considering …
11Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished We are completely cut off.’
Remember it is in Jeremiah where the House of Israel is cutoff or Divorced, but not the House of Judah… This clears up a lot of scripture.
12″Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
Notice that the House of Israel is not in the Land of Israel yet,,, so they can not participate in the 2/3 unless the 2/3 was going to happen again just for them.
14″I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’” and again he will place them on there land.
Remember what the scriptures say… that the House of Israel would lose its identity. Also they would be scattered to the four corners of the earth. The house of Israel never came home at least in its mass numbers, but there are plenty of prophecies stating they will all come to the land in God’s timing. All we know of today is the House of Judah consisting of Judah, Benjamin and Levi. We do not know where this multitude of nations(House of Israel) is right now… except that they are huge.
Actually in Rev. 12
The woman is Israel… notice the crown of twelve stars representing the tribes of Israel.
You are right, they flee to the wilderness where there is a counting of days… Not heaven. John of Revelations was speaking of what Ezekiel said in
20:35 and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.
In this chapter you will see that God compares the wilderness to the exodus of Egypt. Saying basically that its going to happen again and it will be much greater the second time than the first. And for those who think this is happened already with the Judah returning to Israel you are wrong that is only the start… the House of Israel has to return also and this has not happened yet.
And yes it is speaking of Israel. I recommend reading Ezekiel 20:33-49.
Peter
106 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Peter,
In speaking of the “house of Israel” God is not speaking of them as yet being “in the Land” so they have to still be dispersed. Where does the notion present itself that Israel (the seed of Jacob) must be in the land before Zechariah 13:8 & 9?
You are doing the same thing we went over days ago. Israel is a nation of people, not a piece of land outlined by UN Resolution 181.
The “land” is outlined in Ge. 15:18;
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
After Jacob’s trouble is when ezekiel 36 and 37 occur and God THEN brings them into the land. Just as is seen in Ez. 37:21 and 39:28.
The whole house of Israel will be gathered int the land God promised AFTER He brings the punishment and then brings them out of the graves wherever they are, even if they are in Miami and die there.
I am fully cognizant the whole house of Israel IS NOT in the land. I thought that was perfectly clear.
And sorry but, I fully disagree that the woman is Israel because during that time 2/3 are killed and they are NOT yet in the land so they cannot be hidden away.
The twelve stars are not the twelve tribes, they represent the twelve apostles and the Gospel. You can argue the point all day if you like Peter, but, I have studied it inside out and upsode down and until we realize that the central issue is salvation through the Christ of God, Jesus, and it s He Who is being spoken of, we miss the mark.
That is my belief and I’ll stand on it.
Richard,
I am well versed on the man made notion of bifidic and chiasmic studies. Nobody needs to follow man made ideas to understand the Word of God. All we need is His Spirit and a hheartfelt desire to study and learn what His Spirit inspired men to record.
Even though Scofield penned a number of good works, he also penned what I consider pure heresy. Anybody who takes Jesus out of His place as the confirmer of the covenant spoken of by Daniel is denying His finished work and His place in His Word.
I might suggest the only book anybody needs to read is God’s Word and any possible interlinear Greek and Hebrew for better understanding. Just as Ecclesiastes 12:12 & 13 state;
12: And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
All the musings of men are worthless, inclusive of Ellis H. Skolfield.
YBIC,
Michael
107 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Ryan,
Just a lighthearted side note. Have you ever seen such spirited discussion here? Good for learning.
YBIC,
Michael
108 Peter // Aug 16, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Michael,
Good point,
“Nobody needs to follow man made ideas to understand the Word of God. All we need is His Spirit and a heartfelt desire to study and learn what His Spirit inspired men to record.”
I agree.
Anyways back to what we were discussing,
you said:
Where does the notion present itself that Israel (the seed of Jacob) must be in the land before Zechariah 13:8…
Because the judgement is poured out on Jerusalem(key point) which is in Israel.
I agree… man does not define what Israel is, God already has. Israel is a people and Yes it is also a Land.
Just because someone calls Israel, Palestine, does not change it from being Israel. Just because people divide the land of Israel does not change it.
So the people would have to be in the land not according to UN but according to the scriptures which is in the middle east which has a lot of people who are the people of the House of Judah and Gentiles living there ignoring the boundaries, but does not have the House of Israel yet.
…
I realize you believe the twelve stars are not the twelve tribes but that is not scriptural. The verse is clearly talking about a body of people not a small group. I think you should study this more… cause what you claim is just read into the scriptures on your part.
Peter
109 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Peter,
One other key point you missed. Zechariah 13:1 states;
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
It says “house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem” which makes all from the house of David, which is Israel by people, not location.
God makes it clear that He is speaking of two entities and it would be my understanding He specifically points out the two because they are not “in the land” in total.
And the same thing regarding the twelve stars being the twelve tribes Peter because there is no verse in Scripture that points to that. I can just as easily lay the same assumption on you.
Study some of the old Bible commentators such as Gill, Henry, JFB, Clarke, Barnes or Vincent Word Studies and you’ll discover until Darby came along in 1885 the sound doctrinal understanding was that the woman is in fact the Church, not Israel. To a man, exluding darby, that was the soundly understood doctrine taught.
Here is a link: http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/
If a sound doctrine that came out o Jesus’ teachings almost 2,000 years ago were adhered to for 1,800+ years and one man comes along and changes that, I would look deeply, as I have, into the truth.
Keep studying Peter, I do all day. I am blessed to be retired and have all day, and that is all I do, study His Word.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
110 Ryan // Aug 16, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Michael: No, I have not. And I am thrilled that while it is spirited and even at time heated, it is remaining civil, as it should between fellow believers.
I typically stick to the politics and defense issues that are the physical manifestation of the Bible’s fulfillment, but this discussion here has made me realize that I (we) should be focusing more often on the spiritual/biblical side of things as well.
111 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Amen!
112 Joanna // Aug 16, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Frank-
Although I’m addressing you specifically because you mentioned this in your post, please know I’m not picking a fight with you. You have expressed something that I’ve heard others express, and probably other readers of Ryan’s website believe is correct also.
You mentioned that you believe that teaching the rapture “renders [Christians] indifferent to world events.” While this is no doubt true for some people, I believe you are painting with a very wide brush. It is quite possible to both agree with the concept of a pre-trib rapture and be attentive to what’s going on in the world. I have my whole life. Although no one person can be up-to-date on everything happening around the globe, I do my best to stay on top of as much of it as possible. I believe that the doctrine of the rapture adds even more importance to world events, whether we’re talking about Israel, the Middle East, persecuted Christians, political and religious issues in Europe, or any other of a number of topics. And I like to talk about these things with people, but most people don’t, whether Christian or not, or pre-tribbers or not. I think it depends on the individual people, not if they believe in the rapture or not.
By the number of comments to this post, this is obviously a hot topic. Healthy debate is a great thing, but I do ask that we not make such blanket, sweeping generalizations.
Thank you.
Joanna
113 Peter // Aug 16, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Michael,
Very good point on the house of David… I realize i did miss that in zechariah I agree…
I realize there are many old bible commentators which I have studied as well and believe a lot of there commentaries end up in pure opinion and not exactly what the word of God says. Like you said before I believe God is good enough to reveal His word to all of us… especially those seeking his truth ie. you and me.
I wish I had the time you do Michael.. I’m 23 and yes a bit immature as im sure you can tell. I love studying like you… staying up to 4 in the morning with work the next day reading my bible. good stuff
peter
114 Michael // Aug 16, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Petr,
Never forget the words fromour Lord that so drive me from Proverbs 25:2;
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
I was your age once too, I think. LOL. And in all my studies I never could make things add up from all of the so called “scholars” until I was diagnosed with Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrigs)
Knowing my life in the flesh would be shortened, I made the same request of the Lord Elisha did of Elijah in 2 Kings 2:9. I told Him all I wanted to know was the truth in His Word.
I am not saying I have any special insight, but, I honestly do hear His voice. At times almost audibly.
I told Him I had to have all the ridiculous scenarios cleared up like the seven year trib, the temple, the Gog event etc. His Spirit has led me down a road of absolutely astonishing (for me anyway) eye opening clarifying of these confusing issues.
I told Him the next phase of my life after this in the flesh would put me in His presence and I had to know the truth. I said I wanted the moment I stood before Him to be like a homecoming, not feel as a stranger in a strange place.
His Spirit has led me to study Hebrew and Greek and any and all reference material that gets as close to the original text as possible. I have been blessed beyond my wildest expectations and mystical teachings seem to have evaporated like smoke and all that remains is truth.
I have a long way to go, but, it is all I have left in this flesh in learning as much of that truth before my life here comes to an end.
If I sound intense at times, it’s because I have know my time is severely limited here and I am “cramming” in search of the purity in His Word.
Please, no sympathy. This condition has been a blessing I would never change as it has drawn me so close to our Lord and Creator, I never would have experienced without.
Keep searching Peter regardless of your age. Never stop questioning and always stay open to the possibility there is another layer of more truth beyond what you already know.
As I stated before in another post, if it is not he truth, it has little, if any, value.
Drop by my site anytime you like. It’s free and there are reference links I have added most never know about in the LINKs forum.
I look forward to much continued discussion with you Brother. With any luck, we’ll be home soon anyway!
YBIC,
Michael
115 Nerah // Aug 16, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Frank, amen to your comment; To Michael concerning the Rapture
Michael,
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The man of sin, the son of perdition will come first before the so called “rapture”. that is clear but is frequently interpreted backwards.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
when is the last trump?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
of course I don’t believe revelation is chronological either, however this is clear that it is not before the tribulation.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
do a study on the four winds, four corners of earth, and also the trumpet, it is very interesting to see how many prophetic scriptures in the Tanakh can be likened with the Tribulation. (Not all)
We won’t faith Adonai’s wrath, unless we are in sin, we will face man’s wrath however and martyrdom, beheadings and the like. Icould say that i pray I am wrong, and as David Hockings says if you don’t get pretrib. I will explain on the way up, lol. However if I am right then we will be here to do Adonai’s work.
I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and face the rapture then be prepared for rapture and face the tribulation.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
116 Nerah // Aug 16, 2007 at 11:55 pm
Michael,
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The Law, Torah, instruction is an everlasting covenant, notice that in the mellineal kingdom animal sacrifices, for sin even will be made to Yeshua by the Jewish Priests. Obviously we know these do not take away our sins, Yeshua did that once and for all with His sacrifice. It must be a Memorial. We are saved by Grace but should desire in our hearts to follow Adonai’s Torah.
Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them
Eze 43:22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze 43:23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
Eze 43:24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Eze 43:25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze 43:26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
Eze 43:27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.
I agree in part about the 3 1/2 year trib.
I understand very well what you have gone through with your illness and wanting Adonai to just show you truth. I too have been through this and found it was the best thing that ever happened to me, (and the worst). but i found that I had only Adonai to depend on. Not even my body or mind. Yet He showed me so much and everyday i continue to learn. and the blessing of giving myself wholly to Him and being obedient is Healing, (spiritually, and emotionally) but physical healing! since January 4th, I went from 15 meds. to 1 herbal supplement, healed of MS, fibromyalgia, seizures and much, much more! I Pray that Adonai will bring His Glory upon you and heal you and give you great Peace, comfort, freedom, and wisdom.
in Yeshuas name,
תמך
117 Nerah // Aug 17, 2007 at 12:07 am
Nathan, Mannasah is a tribe of Israel, jewish. Of course there are Jewish people in Brit/Am but Brit/Am is not Mannasah. this would be replacement theology. Repalcement theology is antisemitic. There are already tribes that believe they are of Mannasah, the Bnei Manashe from India, and also the Igbo Jews (nigeria)claim to be from Mannasah. This is a good wikepedia article, Of course you can go to each site to check the validity, as with necesary with wiki articles. But it gives you all the info. in one place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_tribes_of_Israel
Blessings,
תמך
118 Peter // Aug 17, 2007 at 12:07 am
Nerah,
I am shocked to see how many of my understandings of scripture run beside yours…
I thought I may add this one verse talking about sacrifices in the future.
17″For thus says the LORD, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
18and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’”
I find it to be fascinating that the Lord will never lack a Levitical priest to serve him.
119 Nerah // Aug 17, 2007 at 12:27 am
Peter,
Yes it is an awesome promise for the Jewish people and those who are joint heirs with them, grafted in gentiles. God’s Torah brings freedom, His covenant is a blessing. It is so amazing looking at scripture through Jewish eyes (as written) as opposed to the gentile eyes as I have always been taught. Both have their pluses of course.
earlier the point was made about no distinction between Jew and gentile, man or woman. This to me means YHWH loves all of His children, no favortism. It does not mean that the gentiles don’t get and and have some rules, blessings, and the Jewish have others. If this verse meant that we should not make any differiantiaion then I could consider alot of you women. You could where dresses. Clearly that is not what it means. I believe in the world of replacement theology unfortunately we must make a differientiation. We all need to be happy with who Elohim made us to be!
Thankful and Crazy Goyim
1 true infidel
Zionist
Lover of Adonai
תמך
120 Nathan // Aug 17, 2007 at 12:34 am
Hi Michael, since it says plainly in God’s word that the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh will both be around in the end days, being hated and shot, but have strength in arms, being blessed with things above and below, being a great multitude of people, and it is not the tribe of Judah (the nationstate of Israel).
One thing is certain, and that is God’s word. Manesseh is now a great nation, and Ephraim is now a multidue of nations, both seemingly blessed above all others. (26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.)
So who do you believe this is?
God bless,
Nathan
121 Nathan // Aug 17, 2007 at 12:38 am
Hi Nerah, the 10 lost tribes of Israel were carried away by the assyrians and lost their identity, so they are not jewish. The jews (judah) kept their identity along with some of the levites and the tribe of benjamin.
God bless
122 James Staten // Aug 17, 2007 at 1:45 am
Michael, I have just returned home. I read a couple of paragraphs then you mention of course John Nelson Darby and 1830..Do some research on this in AD 150, the rapture idea was proclaimed by the Shepherd of Hermas: In 270, Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader proclaimed it, In 350, Ephraim the Syrian, in 400 Jerome in the Latin Vulgate. Then the dark ages occurred, a thousand years without Bibles. After that, in 1304 , Reverend Dolcino proclaimed the pre-trib rapture. In 1400, Bible translations in the native tongues led to a new propagation of the pre-trib, In 1627, Joseph Mede; In 1687, Peter Jurieu; in 1700, John Asgill;in 1738, Philip Doddridge; in 1744,Morgan Edwards; in 1792, Thomas Scott, and then in 1830, John Nelson Darby and his retarded stepsister. The key to end-time Bible prophecy is Daniel especially 9:24-27…Keep Looking Up..Jesus is Coming
123 James Staten // Aug 17, 2007 at 2:07 am
The trouble with replacement theology is everybody wants the blessings of Israel, but nobody wants the curses. Question did God the Father marry Israel at Mt. Sinai, and she eventually went a whoring in truth like we all do. Hosea paints a beautiful picture of being reconciled to a whoring wife, Gomer. Does the Lord Jesus have a virgin bride being prepared. Is God a bigamist. Search the scriptures God has two elect. I believe it was Origin(sp) who started allegorizing everything. If it says Jerusalem then it means Heaven..if it says Israel then it must mean the Church. The Father will be reconiled with his wife and Jesus will have a Virgin Bride. (Short Version)
124 outspoken2 // Aug 17, 2007 at 7:48 am
Although the Jew has a stiff neck and rejects Christ, the highest form of anti-semitism TODAY is not giving the Gospel to the Jew. God will have to deal with the stiff necked Jew. Christ said in Mark 16:15 “Go into ALL the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature, and that includes the Jew.
125 Nathan // Aug 17, 2007 at 10:19 am
17″For thus says the LORD, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
I believe this to be true, since God said his word cannot be broken, but the last the world hears of this throne is Zedekiah of Judah, and all his sons were killed (JER 39:6), so the question is, where is his throne today?
It is not in Judah….
JEREMIAH 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
I would also like to make it clear at this point I am in no way anti-semetic, I FULLY support the jews and the people living in the current state of Israel!!
Notice What God says at the start of the book of Jeremiah…
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
Notice he was over set over “nations and Kingdoms”, and part of his commision was “to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant”, which might be talking about the throne of David of Judah.
God saw to it that Jeremiah went free and not with the captives to Babylon (jer 39:11-12, 40:2-5), he was even given money! He had saw the first part of his commision fullfilled, maybe now was time to fullfill the latter part? He went to dwell with some of the remnant of the jews in Mizpah (40:6). Who was also in Mizpah? Zedekiah’s daughters, that much is clear. ..
41:10 Then Ishmael carried away captive all the residue of the people that were in Mizpah, even the king’s daughters,
All of Zedikiah’s sons were dead, but his daughters were very much alive. They then travelled to Egypt (43:5-70) , but only a few would escape back to the land of Judah (44:12-14, 28). traveling with Jeremiah was also Baruch, who was also under divine protection (45:2-5). Where did they go from there? And where is the throne?
I’m still looking for the scriptures (in jeremiah I think?) about jeremiah taking the daughter of the king after the invasion of the chaldeans. It also talks about planting a tender one (female) somewhere else. I remember reading some Irish folk law about
126 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Let me see if I can catch up, I’ve been at my own site.
Nerah you stated the man of sin will come before the rapture (post 115). First if you study the original Greek text it does not state “man of sin” it says (transliterated) “ho anthropos tes anomia ho huios tes apoleia.”
In direct English it says “the human of the son of destruction.” It is speaking of two entities. One is the “son of destruction” tge other is the “human of.” The “son of destruction” is Satan, the “human of” is the false prophet.
If you had read my post #81 you would understand what the original verbiage Paul used was speaking to.
You statement about the “last trump” is also assumptive. 1 Thes. 4:16 states:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
What you quoted from Rev. is an angel sounding, not God. The two cannot be assumed to be the same. The passage says it is the trump of God, not one of His angels.
The passage from Mat. 24:31 is speak9ing ONLY of Israel, His “elect.”
Isa. 45:4: For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Only those of the bloodline of Jacob (Israel) are His elect so your assumption it is speaking of the church and the rapture is incorrect. People need to stop blending the Church in with Israel. Believers in Jesus are adopted into the promise given Abraham (Gal. 3:29) and become as his seed by Christ, not Jacob’s.
Thank you for the prayer and blessing in this illness Nerah. I have left it in His hands long ago and I know His will is precisely what I am enduring. Sort of like the thorn in Paul’s flesh, it keeps me in line.
Nathan in your question (post 120) is speaking of Joseph as he was the one “separate from his brthren.” Judah BTW, is not the nationstate of Israel. The house of Judah is only separated out because God chose him and his seed to be the head over the 12 tribes.
The “nationstate” of Israel we see today is not what God is speaking to in His Word. Israel is only people of the seed from Jacob. If they all lived in Chicago Illinois they would still be the nation of Israel. The nationstate of Israel identified by the boundaries on a map were laid out by the UN, not God.
That is why God says He will gather them (His elect) from the four winds of heaven in Mt. 24:31. That is the ingathering seen in Ez. 36 & 37 during the millemial reign.
James,
True the key to end times prophecy is Dan. 9:24-27 and the “HE” Who confirms the covenant is Jesus. Isa. 42:6, 49:8, Gal. 3:17, Rom. 15:8, Mt. 26:28, Mk. 14:24.
YBIC,
Michael
127 Nathan // Aug 17, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Hi Michael, I think we are agreeing on topics but I’m just not making myself clear enough :) I agree that the current state of Israel (the boundaries set by the UN) is not the whole house of Israel spoken of by God . I was only talking of the nationstate of Israel as the house of Judah because they are mosty Jewish (although I am aware that there are others there who are not jewish, and there are jews who also live elsewhere), and from what I have read the jews today are the decendants of the tribe of Judah with some of the the tribe of Levite and benjamin (please correct me if I am wrong).
128 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Nathan,
In regards to the question of todays Jews being from the tribe of Judah, I do not believe that would be a correct statement. The reason I say that is because regardless of what we as humans know, God knows every hair on every head and every strand of DNA from every human being back to Adam, whether alive or turned to dust.
God looks at His elect Israel as an entire “nation” of people from the seed of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.
While it is true the name, or moniker of “Jew” is a generic coverall that stems from the name Judah. However God speaks of the “whole house of Israel” and in speaking of Judah, He only speaks of that as the “house of Judah.”
The whole house of Israel is inclusive of Judah and all who are of the seed from Jacob on down. Judah is only one faimily from one mans seed, that being the fourth son of Jacob, Judah.
It is true that when speaking of the tribe of Judah it is inclusive of Benjamin. They are spoken of as one, yet separate, many times.
What I believe people have done Nathan, is sort of placed an all covering blanket over a people using names that do not necessarily fit.
One perfect example is the notion that when the nationstate called Israel was created by a UN Resolution, Israel, as a people, were now back in the land. The same falls true when people call anyone who may practice the religion of Judaism a Jew, which we know is just not true.
Even if I “converted” and began practicing the religion of Judaism, stop shaving my face, put on all the proper clothes that Rabbinical Jews wear and even practice all their useless dietary laws, I will never be Jewish.
Just the same way as if you father sons and they father sons and so on, only those who are of your “seed” are your lineage. The same is true of the “whole house of Israel” and also of Judah.
I hope this is clear of just what my understanding is. I think we look too much at the moniker of “Jewish” and forget truly what that means. Nowadays it seems to be a box people put all who live in the state called Israel or practice the religion of Judaism into and it leads to confusion as to what Israel truly is in God’s eyes.
YBIC,
Michael
129 Ryan // Aug 17, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Michael: Without going into the entire issue here in these comments, I will say that I think you are a bit off on your assumption that everyone thinks “Israel, as a people, [are] now back in the land.”
Even here in Israel, the majority of Jews are painfully aware, even after 3,000 years, that the majority of their brothers are missing. The “lost tribes” have not been forgotten. There are a number of organizations in Israel that do nothing but search intently for any evidence that may reveal people groups or communities that could be part of those tribes that were dispersed by Assyria so long ago.
130 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Ryan,
Forgive me if what I said had the implication everybody looked at things that way. I should make myself clearer, in that in this country, Amerrica, modern “Bible scholars” who make claims that since 1948 when Israel became a nationstate by UN mandate, the prophecies of Ezekiel 36:24, 37:21, 38:8 and 39:28 have been fulfilled.
Those “scholars” use the 1948 Resolution as a basis for teaching falsely that Israel has been called by God “back into the land.”
They follow that line of thinking in developing the false notion, and selling millions of books, that the Gog event is soon on the horizon, discounting the fact John states in Revelation 20:7 & 8 it is after the 1,000 years.
They tend to overlook the fact that the only man named Gog in the Bible we can positively identfy is, in fact, from the tribe of Rueben making him a 100% Israelite.
The Gog spoken of by Ezekiel and John has to be another future man named Gog. It makes absolutely no sense to say the seed from the Ruebenite son of Shemaiah seen in 1 Ch. 5:4 can be the man who is spoken of as an enemy of Israel. He and his seed are Israel, in part.
Agaian, I apologize if what I said seemd to lump everyone in that box. I did not make myself clear Ryan and I thank you for bringing that to my attentionso I could clarify my statement.
YBIC,
Michael
131 Nathan // Aug 17, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Hi Michael, thanks for your response and it does clear a few things up. One thing I am still confused about though is that many times in scripture Judah and Israel are considered seperate entities. I am aware that they are both of the house of Israell, but it seems God often refers to the 10 lost tribes as “the house of Israel” also while the “house of Judah” stayed behind in the land and kept their identity (jews?) even after returning from babylon and rebuilding the temple of Christ’s day. After a certain point God seems to point at them as seperate, for example…
Jeremiah 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
2Kings 23:27 And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jeremiah 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
Jeremiah 11:10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
Jeremiah 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
Jeremiah 30:4 And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Hosea 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great [shall be] the day of Jezreel.
Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, [that] as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, [but] let your hands be strong.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
There are many more, and what’s interesting is that one day they will all again see captivity…
Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
132 Nathan // Aug 17, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Forgot to mention alos about your comment…
“every strand of DNA from every human being back to Adam, whether alive or turned to dust.”
It’s not often I hear that come from a fellow christian, that we don’t go to heaven when we die, but back to the earth, awaiting the resurrection. It would be great if we could all read our Bibles more often than following the concoctions of men.
God bless.
133 Ryan // Aug 17, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Michael: I am afraid we part ways on our view of the return of the Jews to this land. I absolutely believe that the return that started at the turn of the 20th century was the beginning of God’s promised restoration of the land to the people He had previously given it to by divine mandate.
You often mention the UN resolution that set the 1948 borders as evidence that this has nothing to do with God’s Will, but remember that throughout the Bible and history, He has used nations and men to accomplish His Will, even nations and men who did not follow Him, such as Pharaoh, Babylon, etc.
Also keep in mind that the UN tried to set certain borders in 1948, but those borders have been expanded three different times against the international community’s will.
I am confused by one statement in your last comment - you say that the only identifiable “Gog” in the Bible is a descendant of Reuben. What about the “Gog, the prince, the head of Meshech and Tubal” that appears in Ezekiel 38:3?
I am not making any predictions regarding Gog and Magog or the battle associated with them. There are many false teachings and assumptions regarding that. But it seems pretty clear from Ezekiel that there is a Gog who is not related to the House of Israel.
134 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Nathan,
I think the English translation seen in Jeremiah 30:3 is somewhat misleading.
The actual Hebrew states (transliterated form direct from the Hebrew lexicon): “Yahovah shuwb ‘eth shabuwth” which means more precisely: “God, and I reverse captivity of.”
God is not saying He will bring them back into captivity. It translates more correctly that He will reverse their captivity.
There is a wonderful FREE online download that was developed by ‘Scripture 4 All’ that is an interlinear study tool built from the original Hebrew and Greek text. It is an exact copy of the most complete Hebrew text with the Hebrew lexicon, as originally recorded, with the Latin transliteration below and the Strongs number followed by the precise English below that.
Go here: http://www.scripture4all.org/
Take a look as it is one of the invaluable tools I use. The best part is it is FREE.
YBIC,
Michael
135 Nathan // Aug 17, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Cheers Michael, I will definately check it out. Also, do you know why God sometimes refers to Israel and Judah seperately?
136 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Ryan,
For now we’ll just have to disagree on the 1948 issue.
The Gog seen in Ezekiel and Revelation cannot be of the lineage of Israel. I’m not making any predictions either, but, it is clear by what John states from Rev. 20:7 &8 when this occurs:
7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
What so many seem to miss is the statement mad in Ezekiel 39:11;
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
If “Gog and all his multitude” are daed and buried in Israel prior to Jesus’ return, as most predict, then where do they magically appear from again after the 1,000 years?
I fully believe if people would look at Ezekiel; 36 & 37 as total restoration of Israel when God literally brings “the whole house of Israel” out of their graves and breathes life back into them during the 1,000 years, it would be much easier to see the simplicity of the prophecy, inclusive of the timing as stated by John.
God has said “all Israel will be saved” and He is going to physically resurrect every human being from the seed of Jacob and bring them back to life to inhabit Jerusalem during the 1,000 years.
That is what I believe Ezekiel is saying because even though there is a nationstate caled Israel, they do not occupy but about 1/5 of the land God gave them. Until Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt are completely removed Israel will not possess the whole of the land that is theirs.
And in deference to Israel growing, Gaza was given away and Olmert is about give Islam the Golan Heights and the West Bank decreasing Israel’s size even more.
YBIC,
Michael
137 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Nathan,
My only idea whay He refers to them differently is because Judah was set as the head of the twelve tribes making him somewhat responsible for whatever happens to the family.
Israel was the patriarch bearing the twelve sons and Judah was given the “sceptre” of rule over the whole family of twelve.
Someone had to be made head so when Israel himself died, there would be a lineage that was given the position of head. Israel (Jacob) had all his seed in the twelve boys and beyond him Judah was made to rule the whole house.
Michael
138 Ryan // Aug 17, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Michael: Ok, cause I thought you said above that “Gog” is a descendant of the Tribe of Reuben.
You wrote:
“They tend to overlook the fact that the only man named Gog in the Bible we can positively identfy is, in fact, from the tribe of Rueben making him a 100% Israelite.”
Anyway, moving on. The fact that the State of Israel exists today on only a small part of the land God gave to Israel is not evidence that the modern State of Israel is not the Israel of God, or at least part of it. Even in the time of Solomon, Israel never possessed all of the land God promised to it.
For certain, Israel today is to a certain degree resisting the restoration God has promised, thus the withdrawals. But also remember that there is a very sizable remnant in this country that does desire to retake everything in accordance with His Word.
He will return it all, whether the world and Israel’s wayward leaders like it or not.
139 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 5:10 pm
And as His Word clearly states all of Israel will be in the land He promised them.
It is hard watching what is happening and it would be sweet if God would expedite His plan and rid this earth of the enemies of Israel, the Church and God Himself.
You can sense the whole wotld groaning for His return and setting up His rule as it was intended to be. I so look forward to seeing that day.
YBIC,
Michael
140 peter // Aug 17, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Nathan,
You are absolutely right… God does distinguish between the House of Israel and the House of Judah. All through the bible at that and even in the new testament.
The house of Israel was known as the northern kingdom who was divorced in Jeremiah. The house of Judah was the southern kingdom which was not divorced. Read Jeremiah carefully and you will see this. The two were scattered to different lands. The House of Israel lost their identity and they are somewhere in the world today.
Remember the main separations happened around Jeroboam.
There are other verses where the House of Israel takes on different names:
Ephraim,
House of Joseph,
House of Israel,
Northern Kingdom
Reasons for the Northern kingdom taking on the name of Ephraim:
Many state that they were most likely the largest tribe in the Northern Kingdom at that time. That would make since, considering that was also their blessing. Another reason is because Jeroboam who they appointed king over them was of the tribe of Ephraim. Reasons for the northern kingdom also being the House of Joseph is clear also from these already mentioned because Ephraim correlates with Joseph being his father and all.
People easily get this confused and think that the House of Judah and the House of Israel are the same thing, but clearly in scripture they are not. I was able to meet Yair Davidy in Israel who has been searching for the lost tribes for over 30 years… He has some very interesting information.
As in ezekial it speaks of the two sticks coming together… that being the northern and southern kingdom finally reuniting.
Very interesting verses I might add,,, there are also some verses on the two seperate Kingdoms(House of Israel and the House of Judah) in the NT also .
James 1:1 says to the twelve tribes scattered abroad.
Also in acts Paul talks of the twelve tribes and that it is his hope.
6″And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers;
7the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.
141 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 5:11 pm
I meant to say “world” not wotld. My fingers slip alot with this ALS thing, sorry.
Michael
142 peter // Aug 17, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Thank you for the bible link Michael… others may now this one, it is also good http://www.e-sword.net/ free bible software program with many bible versions.
143 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Peter,
I have had E-Sword installed for about three years and it is a great study tool also.
Go here and check out som other valuable links to study guides and such: http://p103.ezboard.com/fwonderfulonefrm8
YBIC,
Michael
144 James Staten // Aug 17, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Just some thoughts on the UN Mandate: Is.66:8..May 15th, 1948, a Nation is born in a day. Is.11:11-12, The Lord shall set his hand the second time to recover the remnant. Is.35:1, The land blossoming as the rose. I think alot of roses are grown in Israel. Is.27:6, I think Israel supplies about 90% of the fruit to Europe. Zephaniah 3:9, the Lord restores a pure language. Several months ago I read about a Jewish gentleman who spent his entire life working on that pure language that had been dead. Is. 43:5-6, Jer. 31:8-12, and Jer.16:14-15, I think the exodus from the North land is overshadowing the exodus from Eqypt. Alot of Russians in Israel. Ezek. 36:24-28, I will bring you from all nations. The scriptures go on and on about a regathering from the nations . Amos 9:14-15, that they will be no more pulled up out of their land. I am a 53 yr old man, in the late 50’s and early 60’s my father told me I would live to see all the armies of the world gather to take Jerusalem away from the Jewish people. The trouble is that the Jewish people didn’t have Jerusalem in the late 50’s and early 60’s. In 1967, I walked into my home and saw the evening newspaper of the famous photo of the Jewish military at the wailing wall at the end of the 6 day war. My father wasn’t that smart. How did he know that all the armies of the world would gather to take Jerusalem away from the Jewish people. He knew his Bible, particularly Zechariah chapters 12 and 14, Jerusalem is a burdensome stone to the whole world. We are watching all the armies gather to do this and might I add with UN approval. The leader of Iran wants to fulfill Psalm 83..that the name of Israel will be no more in remembrance. There is an old saying “the day the Lord chose the Jewish people the devil chose them too”. Leader’s have tried throughout history to wipe the Jewish people off the map. Satan believes if he can destroy the Jewish people then the Messiah can’t come and God is a liar. That is why Daniel 9:24-27 is particularly important. The Church is removed then we have the jewish people in Israel and control of Jerusalem and an unbelieving world mad over or as the scripture makes clear drunk over Jerusalem. Possession is 9/10ths of the law in America. The Jewish people have their land and soon they will have more, but not without tribulation. The Time of Jacob’s Troubles. The leader’s of the jewish people tried to buy the holocaust victims from Hitler. He agreed, but no country on earth would allow them to come. Regardless what the UN would eventually say, there was going to be one airstrip in this world where any jew on earth could come home. Never Again. I don’t care if you can speak or read Greek, Hebrew, or whatever. If black ink on white paper means anything, then you had better take in the full landscape of unfolding events. Keep Looking Up…Jesus is Coming
145 peter // Aug 17, 2007 at 7:07 pm
It’s not often I hear that come from a fellow christian, that we don’t go to heaven when we die, but back to the earth, awaiting the resurrection. It would be great if we could all read our Bibles more often than following the concoctions of men.
I wanted to comment on that also… Others believe that the so called “Rapture” that everyone goes to heaven. When that is no where in scripture. Actually the plan all along has been and will be that Heaven comes to Earth.
Thought I might add to that.
peter
146 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 7:36 pm
James,
I agree we need to take in the full landscape of things. Particularly the seed of Ishmael by Hagar through Esau that is the Arab people and Islam.
Ezekiel 35 (I fully believe) points directly to Islam and names it mount Seir. No other earthly entity can make the claim so poignantly as Ezekiel does in verse 10;
Because thou hast said, These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess it; whereas the LORD was there:
No other entity but Islam has attempted to claim the land. Galatians 4:22-25 speaks directly to the same subject as the seed from Agar (Hagar) in Arabia. Interestingly Arabia is the biirthplace of none other than Islam.
22: For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23: But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24: Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25: For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Few, if any, seem to be paying any attention to this Islamic beast.
And Peter before you settle on that belief read the words from Paul in 1 Thes. 4:17;
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The original actually states we that are “caught up” will be “always together with Master we shall be.” Not necessarily in the air as we do have to come back here.
After the 1,000 years God does away with this earth and the present heaven (Rev. 21:1, Isa. 65:17). Then I suspect things will be as originally intended before Eve and all that mess got started.
Just wanted you to see that.
YBIC,
Michael
147 peter // Aug 17, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Michael,
I agree with what you are saying… but many translate being caught up and in the air as being we are going to heaven. We meet him in the clouds… it does not say we are going to heaven. He sets his kingdom up for a thousands years on earth. So will meet him in the clouds only to follow him down to earth as seen in Zechariah 14 his saints with him. At least thats what I am seeing.
After the 1,000 years God does away with this earth and the present heaven… right, but he creates a another earth and heavens a new one. Which to me sounds like He is doing what Acts says about the ‘Restoration of All Things’ meaning its not necessarily something we have never seen, but just a restoration of when Adam and Eve screwed up like you said.(then again I guess we never got to see what it was like in Adam and Eve’s day…at least the garden)
peter
148 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Peter,
I disagree with the part about meeting Him in the air and then turning around to come back.
I fully believe we are taken at the beginning of the 42 weeks of Jacob’s trouble and are, in fact, the woman in the wilderness nourished and fed for 3 1/2 years.
I believe we are seen also as His children in Isaiah 26:17-21;
17: Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18: We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19: Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20: Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21: For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
I believe it is speaking of the dead in Christ being raised (earth casting out her dead) and us taken to be with our Lord while He pours out His wrath on the inhabitants of this earth during that time.
YBIC,
Michael
149 Lee // Aug 17, 2007 at 8:54 pm
So many wonderful people commenting ,but who’s right and who’s wrong? As i stated before..i don’t know much,i’m trying to learn the Wonderful Mysteries of The Bible.
Michael,you keep referring to Esau as the person who’s descendants are where Islam comes from…1.) I was shocked when you gave that verse showing Esau married Ishmaels daughter,i looked it up ..you were right,i never knew that,However,does that really make Esau the person Islam comes from? I have read in different sites that the Russians are the descendants of Esau….anyone have an opinion on this? Also i also read that it is possibly Russia that is a part of the Gog-Magog relationship..anyone have an opinion on this?
As i stated,a few years ago i knew nothing of these people called Jews or The Torah or even Israel except it being a place…now..my mind stays crazy trying to learn learn learn,but i want-NEED to know the Truth Truth Truth,I already know that the Word of God is the Truth,but its very difficult trying to understand all its meanings-interpretations.
Everyone here keeps saying that The Spirit will guide you to The Truth, YET, just reading all these posts by People who say they are Believers in Christ-The Truth….if all of you are believers in The truth and that you all are guided by the Spirit,then why so many different opinions?? This is really confusing to me.
Regardless,i am learning alot here with all the verses being posted,i’m glad for that.
And to Peter, what a pleasure to see someone so young involved in studying and knowing the Word, the World needs many more young Peters,God Bless You
150 James Staten // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:00 pm
It’s all over the news today. The most important real estate on earth. The approx 33 acres of the Temple Mount. Israel may give it away. Look for the perhaps a sharing arrangement with the Temple Mount. Form Palestine out of the heart of Israel. Perhaps Israel gives up the Golan also, so that they may have their Temple again on the mount. This dividing up of the land brings forth God’s wrath upon the nations. I think Joel makes this clear. Dividing the Land is coming, so is a False Messiah with a peace plan, then when men cry peace and safety. Sudden destruction comes upon them. Syria needs to be dealt with perhaps first..Is. 17:1..Saudi Arabia today labels Syria as the trouble maker in the mid-east… either way false peace then big wars
151 peter // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Thank you lee,
My opinion on everyone sharing different views is we are a body… we all have something to give to each other. And as Paul says we see through a ‘dark glass dimly’… I think this is not to determine who is right or wrong, but more so to seek God even more. I think if we had all the knowledge and understanding of the bible on a personal level we would not be seeking God and his truth we would rely on our selves for the knowledge and understanding we have… Thats just my thoughts. The whole time we have been discussing I am like you, I am learning learning learning. I also laugh when I look in scriptures and look at how the Apostles thought Jesus was coming back in their time… Even they didn’t understand all of what was going on. haha.
Michael,
I see those scriptures and understand where you are coming from…
“the woman in the wilderness nourished and fed for 3 1/2 years.”
The only thing I keep seeing is why does the wilderness have to be in Heaven… I realize the earth is getting wrath poured out on it, but I do believe God can keep us from His wrath right here on earth.
Example
The Israelites were in Egypt, all the plagues and the parting of the sea and the pillar of fire were all wrath for the Egyptians, but at the same time they were wrath… they were salvation for the Israelites.
Thats what I am seeing.
peter
152 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Lee,
What I see in the Bible is easily followed and speaks directly to the lineage of Esau. Esau is also called Edom. Gen. 36:1;
Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.
The English translation of Idumea really isn’t necessary because the actual word in Hebrew is Edom. It stems from the root ‘adam or ‘adom which mean red, as does Edom.
Esau settled in a land known as Seir. Gen. 36:8;
Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
Since Esau settled in Seir, it is me belief that is who is spoken of in Ezekiel 35 and also Galatians 4.
Ishmael’s Mother Hagar, is spoken to as being Mt. Sinai (under the law) in Arabia and her children are in bondage.
A quick study of Islam and you’ll discover it is the only religion that claims parallel roots back to Abraham. The big difference is they claim Hagar was the true wife of Abraham and the blessing went to Ishmael, not Isaac. Islam also claims Muhammed was a direct descendant of Abrahams.
They seem to conveniently leave out the truth spoken on Gen. 17:20 & 21;
20: And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21: But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Ishmael has indeed become a great nation of Arabs and I fully believe from the seed of Esau by Ishmaels daughter Mahalath (also called Bashemath) was Islam birthed.
And like I stated above, Islam is the singular earthly entity that is trying so desperately to do what God says mount Seir is doing in Ezekiel 35:10. Also in Ezekel 35:12-15 we see a perfect definition of Islam blaspheming God and called both mount Seir and Idumea (Edom). Islam denies the triune God head saying monotheism is the truth.
12: And thou shalt know that I am the LORD, and that I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume.
13: Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.
14: Thus saith the Lord GOD; When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate.
15: As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
So for me, Islam is who is being spoken of here. And I am in full belief Islam is the beast from the earth in Rev. 13:11. Satan is tthe “beast in the sea” (Isa 27:1). The false prophet? The Imam Mahdi.
Click on my name here and drop over to the site I run and look into ISLAM and BIBLE STUDY to see some references.
YBIC,
Michael
153 Ryan // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:30 pm
“It is hard watching what is happening and it would be sweet if God would expedite His plan and rid this earth of the enemies of Israel, the Church and God Himself.
“You can sense the whole wotld groaning for His return and setting up His rule as it was intended to be. I so look forward to seeing that day.”
A hearty AMEN to that, Michael!
154 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Peter,
The Greek word translated as wilderness in English is “eremos” and is more properly defined as “uninhabited.” If the church is not there, well it is uninhabited right?
Jesus is 100% God correct? Did Jesus not say in John 14:2;
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Are we not told in Rev. 12:6;
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
“Where she has a place prepared of God.” Jesus was not speaking to Israel, He was speaking to born again believers.
That answers it for me especially when taking Zechariah 13:8 & 9 into account. How is God going to kill 2/3 of Israel if He just hid them away someplace? It does not fit. The Church as the woman is the only thing that fits solidly here.
I hope this explains what I believe about this.
YBIC,
Michael
155 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Ryan,
I believe we are in for something that will take a millenium to even grasp hold of.
When Paul said in 1 Cor. 2:9:
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
I don’t think we even have an imagination wild enough for what lies ahead! Hopefully it is soon Brother!
YBIC,
Michael
156 Ryan // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Michael,
On this, I could not agree with you more. And I want to add to your prayer and hope that it happens soon!
157 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:53 pm
AMEN! Ryan.
With everything we see progressing in the world, particularly Israel and the M.E. I sense that day is close.
Michael
158 Lee // Aug 17, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Michael
I still don’t see the complete connection concerning Islam-Muslims being descendants from Esau.
Also, no comments from you or anyone else concerning Russians being the descendants of Esau? or Russia being apart of The Gog-Magog relationship?
And strange as it sounds,I know more about Islam,than even Christianity.
And i have spent several hours of reading in your site yesterday Michael,and plan on visiting it again> smiles
159 peter // Aug 17, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Michael,
Jesus is 100% God correct? absolutely
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
- Could this not be translated as the New Jerusalem that comes from heaven?
“and the woman fled into the wilderness” I realize it means uninhabited… I can see how this is a place God has prepared for us and its uninhabited, but I would think of heaven as being inhabited and not a wilderness.
There is also a verse in Ezekial that says He will bring us to the Wilderness of the peoples… wherever that is.
I need to study this more and I really enjoy this… I am trying to fully get this down.
160 Michael // Aug 17, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Peter,
Click on my name and peruse the PROPHECY STUDY or BIBLE STUDY and it might help.
YBIC,
Michael
161 James Staten // Aug 17, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Fleeing into the wilderness. What about refuge at Petra in Jordan? I guess the question is, who is the woman of Rev. 12?
162 Nathan // Aug 18, 2007 at 7:25 am
Hi Peter , I’m going to have to agree with alot of your statements here.
“I wanted to comment on that also… Others believe that the so called “Rapture” that everyone goes to heaven. When that is no where in scripture. Actually the plan all along has been and will be that Heaven comes to Earth.”
From reading the Word of God, I think this can’t get any clearer.
Also about your comments about believers going into the wilderness I would have to agree. During the exodus the Israelites were nourished in the wilderness with bread that fell from God, and God didn’t need to take them to heaven for that. We search the bible for the word wilderness, and from what I’ve found it never refers to heaven.
Aslo for there to be a pre-tribulation rapture, there would have to be THREE resurections, not two as it is plainly stated in God’s word, because if the believers were all taken, there would be none to be beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and not worshipping the beast or his image.
Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
God’s word says that the dead in christ meet him in the air first, then those living join them, so there cannot be a resurestion before the tribulation, then another after, then yet another after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Reading the quote above, Christ plainly states that the FIRST resurection is AFTER the tribulation.
Also on the whole “born again” subject, I believe that we are born again at the return of Christ, born into immortal spiritual bodies.
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I beleive at this point we are simply called.
163 Michael // Aug 18, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Lee,
Sorry I did’nt respond about Gog and Russsia. Let’s first explore who Gog is. There are only two people identified as Gog in the whole Bible.
The first is seen in 1 Ch. 5:4 and is the son of Joel and a Ruebenite. If he is a Ruebenite it makes him 100% Israel of the seed from Jacob. That being so the Gog seen in Ezekiel and Rev. 20:8 cannot be the same Gog. One cannot be the elect of God, as all Israel’s seed is, who God says He will save, and also be a mortal enemy of Israel. It just cannot be.
Could Gog/Magog be Russia? Possibly but I think highly unlikely. Let’s examine one simple thing leaving out and present day notions or country names. Let’s just look first at what God’s Word says.
Ezekiel tells us in Ez. 38:1 that Jesus came to him and told him what to write.
And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jesus is the Word so Jesus told him what to say. I prefer the Hebrew rather than the English as it is much clearer. Briefly it reads as follows (transliterated): “Paniym (faces of you) al (to) Gug (Gog) erets (land of) Magowg (the Magog) nasiy’ (prince of) Ro’sh (head, chief) Meshek (Meshech) Tuwbal (Tubal)…”
This Gog is apparently the chief over the land of Magog. It could be the land Japheth’s son’s Magog and Tubal settled in which is known to be somewhere north of Canaan.
The problem arises in that even if that land is situated where present day Russia sits, it isn’t relevant according to God’s Word because of one simple factor. That being John was actually taken out of this world (Rev. 4:1) and shown the Gog event real time. It was not a vision and it was not something he was told. He saw it as it happened unrestrained by the envelope of time we are constrained to on earth.
John saw one Gog event and he stated in Rev. 20:7 & 8 it occurred after the 1,000 years. Had there been two Gog events, as most presently claim, why did John not see this? Add to it the fact that Ez. 38:22 states God destroys Gog with fire and brimstone from heaven.
Ez. 39:11 says ALL Gog and his multitudes are dead and buried.
Rev. 20:9 states the exact same thing:
fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
The Gog seen in Ezekiel and Rev. are one in the same. That Gog is not even alive yet as John says the Gog event occurs after the 1,000 years, not before.
Logically, if we read from Rev. 4:1 where John is taken “up hither,” where Jesus is, and shown future events, why did he not see two events as horrific as these occur twice? Ezekiel gives a blow by blow account of one of the most terrifying events in all Scripture and John did not see this happen but only once?
I fully believe, based solely on what is recorded in God’s Word alone, not the musings of fictitious writers, John saw one event. That event is what Ezekiel wrote about and it only occurs one time, after Jesus’ 1,000 year reign.
YBIC,
Michael
164 Michael // Aug 18, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Peter,
You asked:
It could be since it does already exist in Heaven. We know that from Galatians 4:26;
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
I believe the “place” Jesus was speaking to are the “chambers” seen in Isaiah 26:20;
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The statement from Isa. 26:21 would indicate this occurs just before God pours out His wrath seen in Rev. 16.
26:20: For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Just the way I see His Word explain this Peter. Keep studying Bro! That is what we are told to do in 2 Timothy 2:15.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
YBIC,
Michael
165 Frank // Aug 18, 2007 at 3:54 pm
A further thought on the Rapture to be considered!
Darby and his followers developed the theory of a Secret Rapture, during which all believing Christians will be removed from the earth leaving it to the Anti-Christ and ‘natural’ Israel to battle it out for seven years during the Great Tribulation. After the seven years (or three and a half, depending on who’s talking) Messiah will come with all the resurrected Christians in tow to set up rule on the earth, for a thousand years, in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. Exactly what role physical Israel will play in the Messianic Kingdom, according to Darby’s theory, is not clear.
This particular view is, in my view largely responsible why hardly any Christians care what is happening to physical Israel now. It is all predetermined, or as the Muslims would say, Inshallah! Israel is to be watched closely, for she is ‘God’s time piece’. It is the events in Israel that will let us know when the time of the Secret Rapture is near!
My question here is, ‘Do these Christians love Israel with all its warts and short-comings, or is it a fascination with the expected coming (or return) of Messiah?’ This ‘Rapture’ theology creates quite a paradox…!
Based on this thinking, sinful, guilty Israel is left to suffer the mother of all holocausts on earth, while an equally sinful church parties in heaven with Jesus, the Patriarchs, Moses and the Prophets, et al, while Israel experiences the full wrath of God and the fury of Satan for being cheated of the followers of Jesus.
The conflict is partially in this, when the Almighty offered Moses to take him on alone to the Promised Land and to destroy the rebellious Israelites, all this humble man could say, “If your presence will not go, do not carry us up from here.” Instead of displaying a similar attitude to Moses, i.e. Grace, the church says, ‘…let’s get out of here before it becomes too hot!’
One people will receive the blessings (the church) and the other absorb the wrath (the Jews, of course)!
Selah!
166 Michael // Aug 18, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Nathan,
I have a couple of questions regarding your statements. First you said:
Actually the plan all along has been and will be that Heaven comes to Earth.”
I cannot find that anywhere. What we do see is a new heaven and earth (Isa. 65:17, 66:22, 2 Pet. 3:13, Rev. 21:1) and a New Jerusalem coming from heaven to earth (Rev. 3:12 & 21:2). Where do you find heaven coming to earth?
Also you stated for there to be a “pre trib” Rapture (Harpazo) there would have to be three resurrections and the Bible sasy there are clearly two. I cannot find that either.
All that is stated is there is a first resurrection (Rev. 20:5 & 6). The assumption is there will be more than one, however, never are we told there will be a second. And if this is the first of two and there cannot be three, how would you define the following from Mt. 27:52 & 53;
52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Would that then not count as a resurrection making it the first? If that were so then God’s Word is wrong and that is not so.
I think you are confusing the word “resurrection” with “redeemption.”
Dead humans are resurrected into their same flesh bodies. Jesus Himself was in the body He died in before His earthly flesh was “redeemed.”
The first resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20:5 is the resurrection of those who are beheaded for the witness of Christ during the 3 1/2 years of Jacob’s trouble. The second resurrection is at the white throne judgment seen in Rev. 20:13 & 13 because if we are born again believers in Jesus as the Christ of God, we do not stand before God in that judgment.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
We await our redeemed bodies. The dead in Christ prior to Jacob’s trouble are “changed” just as 1 Cor. 15:52 states. Notice it says the dead will be raised incorruptible from the grave. They are not raised in the flesh they wore before they died. They are not resurrected, they are redeemed and put on immortality at that very moment.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Then we who are alive on earth in Christ have the same thing occur to us as seen in verse 52.
That means those saints in Mt. 27:52 & 53 were also changed when they came out. Those, I believe are the 144,000. The first fruits in Christ.
YBIC,
Michael
167 Michael // Aug 18, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Frank,
I think the onething people still mis in the use of the term “tribulation” is that is not what it is. It is the second half of the 70th week Gabriel told Daniel was “determined upon thy people (Israel) and the holy city (Jerusalem).
That is why Jeremiah called it “Jacob’s trouble.” That is why Zechariah 13:8 & 9 tells us 2/3 will be killed just before Jesus returns in 14:4.
Did not Paul say in 1 Thes. 5:9 & 10;
9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10: Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
It isn’t a matter of how much somebody loves Israel. What matters is what God has said will occur and He states clearly in Amos 2:4-6 that Judah and Israel will be punished.
4: Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:
5: But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
6: Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
Not a pleasnt thing however, it was Israel who rejected Jesus. The Messaih God sent to save them. Never forget what the people said in Mt. 27:25;
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
And so it shall be.
YBIC,
Michael
168 Lee // Aug 18, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Frank
I was raised in those rapture beliefs you are talking about, But i don’t really believe in this teaching anymore,and me and my family painfully disagree on this. If it is true,then i hope God reveals this rapture belief to me.But i just cannot see the Merciful and Just God allowing Christians escape this ” Hell on Earth ” situation,while HIS chosen People are left to suffer.
As it stands,i agree with you totally.
I think there is alot of mislead teachings in the Church,which causes alot of people confused. I think alot of Christians believe that once they’ve excepted Christ as Lord and Saviour,that they can go out and commit any sin,that’s why there is so much corruption within the Christian World,especially here in America.
And just letting you know, I myself have a great and strange Love for Israel and the Jewish People,i say strange..cause i don’t know when and why this Love began.
Michael or Anyone,
i heard somewhere that the Anti-Christ will NOT desire woman,if this is true…Then wouldn’t it make more since that the Anti-Christ would be a Pope?,cause the Catholic Preist don’t desire women, than a Islamic Leader?,Muslim leaders do desire women, just a thought!
169 Joanna // Aug 18, 2007 at 5:32 pm
As a pre-tribber, yes I do love the Jews, warts and all. Everyone we love is warts and all, or else we wouldn’t have anyone to love, would we? Why do people think that anyone who believes in the rapture has some secret vendetta against Jews? That’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard.
People wanting to base their agreement or disagreement on the doctrine of the rapture based on Scripture is outstanding. Let’s keep it at that and not use accusations like 1) Christians who believe in the rapture don’t care about world events and 2) they don’t “love the Jews warts and all”, so clap their hands gleefully at their destruction.
170 Michael // Aug 18, 2007 at 5:51 pm
I’d like to add a thought that might help.
First the fabricated moniker of a “tribulation period” is somewhat misleading. The false idea there will be a seven year “tribulation” is also what has people beliving that.
If we keep our focus on what God’s Word states it simplifies the whole thing.
Gabriel told Daniel “seveny weeks are determined” for whom?
Dan. 9:24: upon thy people and upon thy holy city
Who are “thy people” and what “holy city?” Israel and Jerusalem. And what was determined for them?
1) to finish the transgression, and 2) to make an end of sins, and 3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and 4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and 5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and 6) to anoint the most Holy.
That is what Jesus came to do in His 3 1/2 year ministry before Israel “cut (shachath) Him off” mid week. Jesus came to the Jew first, they rejected Him and the promis then came to the rest of the world. Everybody not of the line from Israel (Jacob).
The second half of the week is the “time of Jacob’s (Israel) trouble” and it is a time, times and a half. Dan. 7:25, Rev. 12:7.
Let’s not forget what God had Zechariah and Amos record.
Zech. 13:8 & 9;
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Amos 2:4-6;
4: Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:
5: But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
6: Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
Why you ask? For their transgressions. Remember Jesus came for them and they gave Him to be crucified ans stated in Mt. 27:25;
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
And so it shall be. Born again believers are not here because God said we are not “appointed to wrath” (1 Thess. 5:9) and that means ANY wrath which will be poured out during Jacob’s trouble. All who still reject Jesus will be here with Israel.
Not just my beliefe, it’s what God’s Word states.
YBIC,
Michael
171 Michael // Aug 18, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Lee,
The passage from Daniel 11:37 is what people are refering to.
Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
The Hebrew that was translated into “desire” is “chemdah” (khem-daw’ ) and more correctly means: pleasant, precious.
Islam does not “chemdah” it’s women. The Hebrew word that would be more indicative of a loving physical desire for women is “chamad” (khaw-mad’) which means: to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in
The Hebrew definition leds me to believe it is Islam. Particularly the part from the above verse saying he will not “honour the God of his fathers.”
That would be Abraham and Isaac and their God since Ishmael was Abraham’s son and Esau Isaac’s son.
Hope this helps.
YBIC,
Michael
172 James Staten // Aug 18, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Who is the Woman in Rev. 12….One fact the Church is called a bride, or chaste virgin, but it is Israel that is referred to in scripture as a woman. Is. 54:5-8, Jer. 4:31, and Mic. 4:9-10…Michael the Archangel is called the guardian over the sons of Israel..Daniel 12:1 makes a very good reference, and he will arise at that time of national Israel’s tribulation. It just happens to be in Rev. 12 with the Woman in question. I guess she is not in question anymore. If need be more reference material will be provided to show this is not the church. The Church leaves in Rev. 4:1 and doesn’t reappear untl Rev.19
173 Michael // Aug 18, 2007 at 7:24 pm
James,
Actually the Church is never referred to as the Bride. New Jerusalem is referred to as the Bride in Rev. 21:2;
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Jerusalem above is also called the Mother of us all in Galatians 4:26;
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Interestingly you bring up Daniel 12:1 which points direclty to the 3 1/2 year “time of Jacob’s trouble” called exaclty as Jesus called it “a time of trouble such never has been” just like what Jesus described in Mt. 24:21;
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And just a bit further down in Daniel 12 we see Daniel overhears the conversation with Jesus (man on the waters) in verse 7 telling how long this time will be until all things are finished.
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Those “things” would be what Gabriel told Daniel were “determined upon thy people and the holy city.”
What reference material do you have that shows this is not the Church? I’d be interested to read it James.
YBIC,
Michael
174 James Staten // Aug 18, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Paul in II Cor. 11:2..Jesus called himself the bridegroom Matt. 9:15 and Mark 2:19-20 What did Jesus mean if he was not the bridegroom? Certainly he knew what to call himself. If he were the bridegroom of the first members of the called out body of people in this age , then he is the bridegroom of the last members of this body of people. John called him the bridegroom John 3:29..John must have known this since he was a friend of the bridegroom, and not the bride. There are many scriptures which show a betrothal or marriage concept
175 James Staten // Aug 19, 2007 at 1:18 am
I Cor. 2:2 and Philippians 3:10…Even So Come, Lord Jesus
176 Frank // Aug 19, 2007 at 4:33 am
Michael,
You said a few posts back that the ‘State of Israel’ created in 1948 is only a creation of the UN - not of God! What is it in your view - especially since the land and the descendants of Jacob are scripturally inseparable? Who is the Israel you call a people?
177 peter // Aug 19, 2007 at 5:11 am
Hmm let me see if I can catch up…
Michael I agree I believe we will be in a fleshly body when we are transformed.
Nathan was qouting what I was saying about Heaven coming to earth. There are many more verses describing this. I believe this one is very clear., but I dont have much time so i am only going to list this one.
Remember the prayer that the Lord spoke…
Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11′Give us this day our daily bread.
12′And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13′And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]’
Your Kingdom come and your will be done on earth. The Kingdom of God comeing/being/to be done on earth. God is speaking of His Kingdom coming to earth. The Kingdom of God is Heaven or His Reign on earth.
Again there are much more verses on this.
Another being the new heaven and the new earth. If we were going to dwell in heaven why would God created a new earth?
I will list more later… peace brothers
peter
178 Frank // Aug 19, 2007 at 6:49 am
Peter,
I look forward to sharing our Father’s Kingdom here on earth with you and all those who rejoice over what He has made , has redeemed at a great price through Messiah Yeshua and is continuing to redeem through the true sons of God (Rom 8:18-25).
Shalom
Frank
179 Michael // Aug 19, 2007 at 9:27 am
James,
One particular statement is made in both Mt. 9:15 & Mk. 2:19-20 that is very telling you overlooked. Follow along.
Mk. 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast
Notice we are called “children of the BRIDECHAMBER?”
Paul likens believers “as a” chaste virgin, which only means spotless, however, if as Paul also states in 1 Corinthains 12:12:
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
And 12:27:
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
If we are the body of Christ as Paul states, that makes us one with Him and He one with us. He is the head, we are the body. How does He marry His body? We are told the body is “children of the bridechamber” and in Revelation we are told the New Jerusalem is the bride. If we are the “children of the bridechamber” it would fit with the New Jerusalem being the bride and we are seen in Isa.26:20 as being told to go into our “chambers.”
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Notice too, as you pointed out in John 3:29, Paul likens himself as being a “friend of the bridegroom” not the bride?
If Paul is the friend of the bridegroom, then who is the bride? Is not Paul also a believer in Jesus? He cannot be the friend and the bride too. If we are “one in Christ” and are His body, how then can we be His bride too?
Galatians 4:26 tells us that Jerusalem above is the mother of us all. That is the New Jerusalem that is not yet come to earth and the “chambers” are what Jesus went to prepare for His “children of the bridechamber.”
We are already in Christ and He is in us. I know it has been taught the Church is His Bride, but, never is the Church called His Bride. It is a teaching that has no foundational support Biblically. Especially given the above passages and what Rev. 21:2 states.
It does not fit Biblically that the body is also the Bride especially when Rev. 21:2 clearly says New Jerusalem is the Bride.
Frank,
I have stated over and again the only people who are “Israel” are the direct blood descendants of Jacob. I was a Gentile believer in Christ. Now I am one in Christ as Gal. 3:28 states. I am one in Christ so I am no longer a Gentile in His eyes. I am a new creature as 2 Cor. 5:17 states. The old me is gone, the only thing that remains is the redemption of this body at that day (Eph. 4:30).
If I moved to the nationstate of Israel, does that then make me part of what is Biblically called Israel? Absolutely not.
Peter,
Again, heaven is never spoken of as coming here to earth. It is a separate entity. Otherwise Rev. 21:1 is false:
YBIC,
Michael
180 Nathan // Aug 19, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Hi Michael,
More verses describing God coming from heaven to dwell with man on Earth are found in Rev 21:1-3
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
A new Earth and new heaven (heaven can also mean the air above) can just as well be a restored earth.
Another here..
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As for the two resurections, I was talking end times resurrections, and they can be found in the verses below.
REV 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Verse 5 shows another resurrection after the 1000 year reign. If there had been a resurection just previous to the tribulation, Christ would not call the one after “the first”. The resurection that Christ refers to as the first is after the tribulation becasue he is talking about the end times events, whorshipping the beast, mark of the beast, and those people who were resurected in “the first” being killed for not taking that mark etc. Also people talking part in the first resurection are not simply flesh bodies, because jesus says that death has no power over them, they are now immortal, just as promised in Romans 6:23. Jesus may have been resurrected with a flesh body, but not simple earthly flesh, because he could also disapear and reapear at will.
Luke 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it , and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
also read …..
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Obviously there is more to these new bodies than just mere flesh.
God bless.
181 James Staten // Aug 19, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Gen. 3:24 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh”. I Peter 2:4-5, what about lively or living stones. Now when I married my wife some people may have thought I was marrying a building?. Now you mention about Christ marrying himself. I think Gen. addresses this issue. So does Jesus marry his body of living stones?. There is symbolism in scripture. Have you ever studied a Jewish wedding?. Christ has so far fulfilled that process, and he will complete it. We can go around and around with this, but I do have to ask a question of you? Several days ago you called one of the Plymouth Brethren, John Nelson Darby a heretic. I responded with several references of believers of the past whom taught a pre-trib rapture, way before Mr. Darby. One would have to surmise by your statement that if one is wrong in his theology,then he is perhaps a heretic. I thought it took a perfect Savior, not a perfect theology.
182 Michael // Aug 19, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Nathan,
Again I must stress that there is not a resurrection prior to the “time of Jacob’s trouble” it is a redemption. We are changed instantly and this earthly flesh is turned into a glorified body just like the one Jesus now inhabits.
Resurrection is a term that means “a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death” People will be brought back to life in the same flesh they died in.
Believers who are “redeemed” have their bodies changed and put on entirely new bodies just as Phillipians 3:21 states;
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
The dead in Christ that are redeemed just before those alive are “caught up” (harpazo) are brought to life in redeemed bodies, not rsurrected in their old earthly flesh as 1 Corinthians 15:52;
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
They are not resurrected, they are raised in their new incorruptible bodies. The first “resurrection” is those who die during Jacob’s trouble for the witness of Jesus. They are brought back to life and reign here on earth with Jesus. That is not the body of believers that are “harpazo” prior to Jacob’s trouble.
The body of believers alive at the time of the “harpazo” are redeemed and put on the incorruptible bodies that await us in heaven.
There is a natural earthly body and a heavenly body that awaits us. 1 Cor. 15:44;
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The “Kingdom” being spoken of as coming down here is God’s rule. Even though there is a New Jerusalem that is a physical place, the Kingdom He speaks of is the way things are done in His Kingdom as in heaven.
YBIC,
Michael
183 Anne // Aug 19, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Nathan,
I read your post of 3 resurrections -Post 162
This is my thought concerning the martys of Yeshua.
All over the world today, they are dying for their belief in Jesus Christ. “We, are marked” by both the Father and the enemy of our soul.
There is a diabolical plan to kill off any dissidents in America as Lucifer’s reign comes near. The One World Order. Globalization. America’s undoing was a big mandate and one of the first on the list.
We see a beast here and know that the beast has made these plans. I can only speak for America, tho I know throughout the world…people are dying all the day long for their belief in Jesus Christ.
Many Americans are still grounded in their faith and freedom in Christ. We are going to have those freedoms taken from us, and when the church here finds out the plan their faith will be severely tested.
We will be rounded up as we refuse and there is evidence of thousands and thousands of shakles installed into railroad cars waiting. One of our Senators last year spoke of reinstating the guillotine
for criminals. His reason was so that the bodies could be used for benefit after.
There is evidence here of hundreds of guillotines’ also in wait in Wyoming. Many gulags…and gas chambers.
I am going to suspect many believers here will be made to look like criminals and we will die by guillotine. This is the faith and the patience of the Saints. We will be led like lambs to the slaughter.
This will fulfill scripture, perhaps the part you speak of.
‘This is coming soon to a theatre near you.’
I am trusting my Saviour. I am preparing to be known by Him as I am known, and to see him face to face.
Will I be beheaded? Only He knows.
Where does this fiti n all of the end time scenaio so that your mind makes sense of it; I pray you find peace.
For sure….it will happen.
Anne
184 Anne // Aug 19, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Sorry about the mis-spellings in my previous post.
I thought also that the “Marriage supper of the lamb”
might be celebrated with Yeshua in the (bodies prepared place) during 3 1/2 yrs or 7 yrs. wrath.
My understanding is that Jesus accomplished it all at Gethsemene, Golgatha and the empty tomb. So it “was finished’ for Israel first and all the world next through the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified.
The woman with 12 stars to me is Israel. When she gave birth and went to the wilderness’, this was to me the protection of all the saved of Israel in YeshuahaMashiah when Joseph took Jesus to Egypt to save this spiritual seed from destruction. 3 1/2 yrs.
Just as Joseph of old went to Egypt because Lucifer wanted Israel dead, Joseph redeemed Israel physically and spiritually in the wilderness of Egypt by receiving his brothers (the tribes of Israel) saving their lives from famine and forgiving them. So the seed remained and the Promise a continual fulfillment.
Anne
185 peter // Aug 19, 2007 at 9:51 pm
The “Kingdom” being spoken of as coming down here is God’s rule. Even though there is a New Jerusalem that is a physical place, the Kingdom He speaks of is the way things are done in His Kingdom as in heaven.
The point is, the Kingdom of God is coming to earth and it never says we are going to heaven, but it does say God is coming to earth to set up his Kingdom. If He is coming to dwell here on earth why would we go to heaven..?
The other thing is in Rev 21:1. In the Aramaic/Hebrew OT and NT it uses the word (Het)’Hodesh’ now this word is used for the New Heavens and New earth.
1. When it says a new heaven it is not speaking of the heaven of God. God is not re-creating the heaven He dwells in. The verses clearly speak of earth and the heavens burning… that is something physical not the spiritual heaven.
…
Paul spoke of only two resurrections… a resurrection into eternal life and one into eternal damnation . One for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.
15having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Those who take part in the first are blessed… they will reign with the Messiah on earth for a thousand years… those who take part in the second which is after the thousand year reign are in trouble.
Job speaks of the first Resurrection here:
Job 19:25-27
25″As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26″Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
Job will see Jesus in his(Job’s) new body. Notice he has to have a new body since his skin is destroyed…
Peter
186 Mary // Aug 20, 2007 at 5:36 am
Wow! I have never seen so many interpretations of the same scriptures posted in one place in response to such a small statement as The Days of Noah and the comments of the message as written above, that we can’t see the signs of the times.
We spend too much time debating an issue that does affect us all, both Christian and Israeli. Pre trib, Post trib, Mid trib. I love our pastor’s belief. He believes in the “Pan trib,” however, it pans out is fine with him; however, as Paul recorded, We all see through a glass dimly. There is not one of us who can fully understand the glory that is set before us.
Then there is the issue of what happens to Israel in all this. God has never abandoned Israel. God is a covenant keeping God. There was a time when Israel abandoned God and paid double for their sins.
We would do well to heed the Lord’s words as recorded in Isaiah 58 stop wagging the tongue and pointing the finger and fulfill the Sabbath practicing pure and undefiled religion.
” Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”
The apathy not only lies in Israel but in the Church as well. We need to get back to the call of God, spreading the gospel of peace, because the days are evil and we do not know the day nor the time of His return.
187 Marsha Carol Watson // Aug 20, 2007 at 10:07 am
YES, MARY, YES!
188 Michael // Aug 20, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Sounds like a lot of “tongue wagging” to me and adding yet another interpretation from your Pastor. And you point the same accusatory finger?
You are right we need to pay heed to Go’d s Word especially regardinmg Israel and what lies ahead for her, which you seem to conveniently ignore.
Amos 2:6;
Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
Zechariah 13:8;
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Jeremiah 30:7;
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Israel will be punished for their transgressions whether we like it or not. Sounding the alarm is not complacency, ignoring the truth is.
Israel IS NOT in covenant with God right now. The first covenant of the law was made moot at the cross. They will be brought back into covenant AFTER Jacob’s trouble just as Jeremiah 31:31 predicts Paul restated in Hebrews 8:8 & 13.
They cut themselves off when they “shachath” Jesus at the cross. He will re-establish His New Covenent in Jesus with Israel after He deals with their transgressions as clearly stated in His Word.
Complacency comes from knowing the truth and doing nothing about it. The truth is Israel WILL go through 3 1/2 years of terrible trouble, but, will be saved out of it. His Words, not mine spoken in Daniel 12:6 & 7.
6: And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7: And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Those “things” are what Gabriel told Daniel were “determined” upon his people and the Holy City. It is inescapable Mary. That is what His Word says, not the meanderings of some complacent individual.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
189 Nerah // Aug 20, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Amen Ryan
Mary, Amen, my Rabbi says the same thing, pantrib. ,lol however I do believe we need to stand against false doctrines and try to share truth, we can discuss politely, and agree to disagree at times. We especially cannot let replacement theology stand without accountablility.
James and Nathan,
It seems that much of your views are likened to two house and or replacement theology. Tell you what ask my Jewish friends who are possibly not of the tribe of Judah and I am sure they will tell you they are a Jew through and through. The scripture in Hosea is beautiful and is about the jewish peoople not the church. notice it says Judah and Israel. All the Hebrew people.
Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
maybe we should all look closely at the fact that saying the church replaced even part of the jewish people is antisemitic. again call a spade a spade. I ask if the ten tribes are not returning home and don’t know they are jewish then why are they coming home from throughout the world? Are we just ignoring the obvious? Sure some people don’t know thier identity but many have kept thiers.
has anyone ever researched all the amazing things that happened in 1948 that can correlate with Bible prophecy and Israel becoming a nation again…Hal Lindsey has a teaching about it. (not saying I agree with all he says regarding other stuff)
Michael,
YHWH’s elect would include any grafted in believer, if we are adopted, Ger(strangers) dwelling amongst the first chosen Jewish peoples this includes us gentile believers in the Jewish Messiah I believe, I am clearly not one to blend the gentiles or church with the Jewish peoples…however in this particular scripture you can consider it to include all Yeshuas people . Strangers dwelling amongst the Jewish peoples even inherited land and also had the fun of being put to death for certain sins.
also we need to pay attention to what can lie ahead for US if we forsake YHWH or His chosen peoples or come against them in any way, I think we do need to stop worrying so much about the gentile church and more about the lost Jews and other nations. Not that the belief that they will be all killed in the tribulation but how to get them through it and if you believe in pretrib. how to get them with Adonai. Teaching the truth and not the paganism that we have been taught in the gentile church for so long.
blessings
190 Michael // Aug 21, 2007 at 12:52 am
Nerah,
Sorry but I disagree. Israel and ONLY Israel is God’s elect just as Isaiah 45:4 states;
For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Born again believers outside the bloodline of Isreal (Jacob) are adopted as a totally separate “seed” from Abraham, not Jacob (Israel as we are told in Galatians 3:29;
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We are heirs of the promise, not adopted as the elect of God as equals to Isreal, Jacob’s seed. Spiritually we are all one in Christ, however, Israel is Israel and will always remain so.
Any believers outside that bloodline is not of that bloodline and are NOT equal to that seed called Israel.
Born again believers in Jesus are in covenant with God through Jesus, Israel is yet to be saved and brought into that covenant.
Isaiah said it was coming in the last days and Paul restated it.
Isa. 31:31: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb. 8:8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb. 12:24: And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Israel and bornn again believers wil share in the promise. Israel is Israel and will always be Israel. The Church is another entity.
YBIC,
Michael
191 Mariel // Aug 21, 2007 at 2:02 am
I believe not all Jews are of the bloodline. Some are adopted into it as Jews. Many, in fact.
The Church may indeed be a separate thing from Israel, however. Not Jews, not born in or converted. Gentiles who are “grafted in”.
I know so many converted Jews (who do not call themselves Christians) that I have to say they are Jews.
I am of the lineage many call British Israel but I am not claiming to be that. I am a mix of gentile and Jewish ancestry, very unpure from a “bloodline” point of view. Most Jews I know (who are not Christian) are also very mixed in ancestry, having Polish, Jewish, Spanish blood as well as descent from jacob.
Mariel
192 Frank // Aug 21, 2007 at 2:56 am
Michael,
You are making a great error in your heavy handed pronouncements. There is not one word in the Bible about God making a separate covenant with a thing called ‘The Church’. What you are talking about is an arrogant theological construct through a totally pagan system called Constantinian Christianity.
According to the Scriptures, believers are grafted into the ancient Olive Tree not developed into a separat tree.
Blood-line has little to do with all of this for even king David was of mixed blood-line.
The descendants of Jacob, whether mixed or pure are STILL God’s beloved and you and I need to walk humbly before the Almighty lest we will also be cut off - for there is no such thing as an ‘once saved always saved!’
I ave asked you this once before, but you will not come out and say it to this forum how much the Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria of today matter to you - apart from your ’spiritual Israel’!
Adopt a little humility and stop trampling on everyone with your King James theology it is way off in may parts.
It greives me having to speak so strongy to you, but seemingly no-one else will!
Shalom
193 Michael // Aug 21, 2007 at 8:42 am
Frank,
Forgive me but never do I recall you responding to anything I have said, let alone some particular statement you allude to regarding Jerusalem, Judaea and Samaria.
Judaea and Samaria are vastly important. First because they are part of the lands promised Jacob wherein Judah (Judaea) and Samaria, the northern portion of Israel where the ten tribes, besides Judah and Benjamin, setteled.
Jerusalem is the capitol Holy City of the land given Jacob that is defined in Genesis 15:18. The land is the land, the people of the seed from Jacob are Israel, no different than anyone from my family that starts with me is of my seed.
Born again believers may be “graft” in, however, we become heirs to the promise given Abraham, not part of the natural lineage Israel. Gal. 3:29;
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And your rash statement about there not being a “once saved always saved” is false as clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 3 especially verse 15:
If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
We are sealed with His Spirit and belong to Him until we are redeemed and receive our incorruptible bodies just as Ephesians 4:30 states.
Could you be so kind as to point out just where I spoke of sprirtual Israel? Israel is a nation of people who are PHYSICALLY the direct blood descendants of Jacob who was renamed Israel and those people took the name Israel. Even if you live in the nation state of Israel, that does not make you any part of Israel.
Your “label” of arrogant theological construct is tantamount to calling me a liar and you have no basis for those accusations. And your baseless claim of my building some theology on the KJV is what would be expected from someone who pops off as you do.
I use the direct interlinear original lexicon, Latin transliteration and the English as directly translated from the original Hebrew and Greek text. The KJV is quoted as it is the easiest to read, otherwise I would be using the 1560 Geneva which most would have a difficult time reading.
Perhaps while you are busy deriding me you might be kind enough to explain the following if I am wrong about Israel NOT being in covenant.
Jer. 31:31 states God will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. Hebrews 8:8 & 13 state the same thing so they were not in covenant with God when that was penned just as we are told in Jeremiah 11:10;
…the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
Perhaps you can humble yourself, hop off that horse you’re on, and explain to me where God’s Word has stated something that leads you to believe otherwise Frank.
You have falsely accused me of following a pagan practice and apologies would be in order. Or perhaps you have’nt gotten to Luke 3:14 yet.
BTW, what is the “approved by Frank” version we can use?
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
194 Frank // Aug 21, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Michael,
I will pray for you! Otherwise no comment!
Shalom
195 Michael // Aug 21, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Frank,
That’s less than Brotherly. You make accusations that are claimless then refuse to apologize or at the very least, address the accusations?
Luke 3:14;
Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely
I hope you’re reading this Frank.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
196 Nathan // Aug 21, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Hi Nerah,
Firstly I am sorry that you feel my beliefs are anti-semitic, if they have come accross that way them I am truly sorry, for that is not how I feel in my heart. I truly feel for and support the jewish people. Secondly I am not sure what you mean by saying my views are two house theology or if you mean that as a derogatory statement, but I am just trying two follow what is says in God’s word, and it is God who talks of the two houses seperately, not me, but God syas that one day soon they ALL (each and every single one of them) will be back together under one king, but that day plainly has not happened yet, and it is prophesied in many places of the bible to take place after a resurection, for example…
EZEKIEL 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it , and performed it , saith the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
You can call me antisemitic, or give my theology derogative names, but it comes from the Bible itself, but if I am wrong, then may God forgive me.
God bless.
197 Peter // Aug 21, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Michael,
I have to disagree with a few things said about the covenants. There is no covenant made for the church… at least in scripture. Also considering that there is no church in scripture just a gathering of believers. There are only covenants for Israel and will only ever be covenants for Israel, but we do get to join them.
Also I just want to make it clear the apostles were Jewish except Paul being of Benjamin, but non the less they were all of Israel. Were the apostles the church or israel, lol. We are all of the same covenant and same body. How has Israel not entered into covenant as you stated, if 3000 believers who showed up for Pentecost(Shavuot) and many more myriads of jews spoken of in Acts came to faith and came into covenant???
Also about the descendents Paul makes this very clear in Romans 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
We see that the descendents of Israel are not because of physical seed, but because of promise. Israel has to be grafted into the covenant just like we do. One covenant and law for all people whether Israel or Gentile. Another words it doesn’t matter if you are of Blood or not you both have to be grafted in.
Peter
198 Charles // Aug 23, 2007 at 3:22 am
Michael ,
Could you discuss why you disagree with the third Temple . And do you believe that the Sanhedrin might build it being blinded to the Sacrifice of Jesus as being the final acceptable sacrifice to God . Would that same desire preserve the Sanhedrin that caused the Crucifixion fuel the re-instating of Temple worship .
199 Richard // Aug 23, 2007 at 11:15 am
Hello Al and Frank,
could you please let me know exactly what “religion” you guys are and where I can find out more about it?
I am absolutely sick and tired of “Rapturites” as I call them. They seem to be everywhere on the internet and whenever they turn-up the result is the same, baiting for arguments, provoking confusion, thinly veiled insults, aggression, divide and conquer techniques and Bible verses quoted ad nauseam to throw people off and take them away from the original theme of a thread or blog, either through boredom or distraction onto other thoughts.
Thanks.
Richard.
200 Frank // Aug 23, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Hello Richard,
Nice to meet a thinking person!
I don’t have ‘religion’, but I am a passionate follower of Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel. I am deeply troubles by the things you mention, but sadly it seems the majority of Christians thrive on this stuff. I visited Israel some 25 years ago and while meditating at the Western Wall, HaShem began a work in me that is still going on, but meantime He taught me from the Scriptures. Probably the most significant thing He taught me was that Yeshua was a Jew and not the first Christian. I also learnt that I was grafted into an existing faith and I needed to look into our Hebraic roots in order to understand redemption and my own salvation. Furthermore, I discovered that the Christianity I was steeped until then was largely a pagan theological construct from the time of Constantine with only a very thin Biblical veneer.
On this journey of discovery I also learnt that the most important thing that I could confess was that Yeshua was the Son of God (John 20:31; 1 John 5:5, 10,12,13,20). Many people today are not satisfied by having the Son of God as their new Head, they have to address him as God and ascribe to him an equality with the Father Yeshua never sought for himself. This stand earns one the title heretic by people who do not hesitate to bash others with strings of unconnected and many times badly translated Bible verses irrespective whether they are right or wrong.
I have discovered that much of Christianity is awash with all kinds of divisive, unsubstantiable dogmas, but there is little desire for truth.
You seem to have such a desire - if you do you then are you are truly blessed, for Paul teaches that God Himself will send a spirit of DELUSION to all those in whom there is no love for the truth!
I was given the great privilege to study Hebrew within the Jewish community for several years and had thus my eyes opened to how far Christianity had moved from the true source. I also invested several years to study Greek as well, so I could actually go to the ancient documents without having to rely on the efforts of others that were many times not that rewarding.
There is a revolution happening all over the world where more and more sincere seekers after truth are drawn to our ancient source contained in the Hebrew Scriptures. Many people are sensing that not all is well and that is reflected on blogs like this one.
What continent are you on?
As I said, I do not have a religion, but I trust Yeshua that he has prepared a place for me in his Father’s kingdom of righteousness which I seek with all my heart. I have no confidence any more in the mystical institution calling itself ‘church’, but I will fellowship with believers wherever I find them.
Look up for our redemtion is drawing nigh!
Shalom and blessings in the name of Messiah Yeshua
Frank
201 Michael // Aug 23, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Peter,
The people being spoken to by Paul in Romans 9 are those who are of the seed of Ishmael by Hagar. They may live in the land but are not Israel. Paul makes this clear in Galatians 4:22-31 particularly verses 22-24;
22: For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23: But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24: Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
There seems to be some misunderstanding regarding these covenants. We are graft into the promise given Abraham. That promise is in Genesis 17:6 & 7 saying He has chosen Abraham and his seed that He will be their God and He will make many nations of his seed. He is differentiating between the seed after Isaac, not Ishmael.
6: And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7: And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
The two covenants are the law and grace, just as Galatians points to. The law is no longer as the new covenant of faith is now in force just as Hebrews 8:13 states;
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Israel as a whole is not in covenant because the law was made moot by grace as Romans 6:14 states.
The law is what people who reject Jesus and die under the law, will be judged by. The blood covenant in Christ was confirmed 430 years before the law was ever given. The law has no effect over those who are under grace by faith in Jesus. Gal. 3:14-29.
Charles,
The Sanhedrin can build whatever building they wish for whatever reason they feel motivated to do so. The point is there will never be another “temple of God” made with human hands. They can call it what they desire, it will not be “the temple of God” wherein His Spirit dwells. If His Spirit is not there, it is not His temple.
1 Cor 3:16;
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Ephesians 2:21;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Those passages tell us just what is now the temple of God. It is the body of believers. It is a live temple, not a stone temple just as God’s Word states in Acts 7:48;
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet
and 17:24;
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
So there will be no stone “temple of God” regardless of what might be built.
YBIC,
Michael
202 James Staten // Aug 23, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Richard, I agree with much you have written, but there are a couple of points I might make. There are two concerns that face bible believing people today. There is a rapture, the question is the timing, probably 70% of the church today disagrees with idea at all. The second is that the Lord didn’t really give that land to Israel forever, it is occupied territory. If one mentions the rapture or the land you will be scoffed at by most people. My response to you would be that if there is a Pre-trib rapture then events may unfold as many bible scholars believe. In truth from a human perspective the only friends Israel has in the world are evangelical christians. If one leans toward this thinking then after the rapture only an unbelieving world and the Jewish people with some land called Israel and the city of Jerusalem will be left to enter the times of Jacob’s troubles (Daniel’s 70th week) Then the armies of the world will come to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth and take Jerusalem away. Of course this will not happen. It has been tried countless times before. The Jew is indestructible. The God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob neither slumbers or sleeps.
203 Peter // Aug 23, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Michael,
Romans 9 does not describe those of the seed of Ishmael… the context is the Jews who are Paul’s brothers according to the flesh not the spirit. They are brothers according to the flesh and not the spirit because they have not come into covenant with Messiah.
Physical blessings and Bloodline does not get you salvation… that is taught no where in scripture not even in the Law.
Also about the new covenant… which we are a part of which has also not been fulfilled… If the Law has been done away with why is it being written on our Hearts? I tell you its not been done away with, actually its being applied more in a our life than ever.
peter
204 Michael // Aug 23, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Peter,
I disagree with your assessment of Romans 9 Brother.
Paul makes it clear who he is speaking of and he is delineating who are the children of the promise and the children of the flesh. He makes this clear in verse 8;
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The children of the flesh are those by Hagar spoken to in the exact same manner in Galatians 4:23;
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Paul explains simply from verses 8-11 who these children are. The promise came first by Sara (v.9). The next is by Rebecca who birthed both Esau and Jacob. Verse 12 tells us who will serve who and verse 13 states again who is being spoken of.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9 is clearly speaking of the “children of the flesh” by Hagar the bondwoman, who are the ones from Israel who are not Israel. Paul makes this clear again in verse 7;
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Paul is making it perfectly clear the ONLY children who are of Israel who are the children of the promise given Abraham are of the lineage from Isaac and Rebecca in Jacob, not Esau.
Jesus Christ IS the covenant Peter. Isaiah 42:6;
I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
That is Jesus the Christ of God Who God sent to confirm in the flesh here on earth what had already been confirmed in heaven before Moses even reveived the law.
Gal. 3:17;
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Rom. 15:8;
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Could you show me where God’s Word says the law is now written on our hearts Peter? I cannot find that. All that I can find is Paul speaking of Gentiles in Rom. 2:14 & 15 who obey the law yet have not the law. He is stating they become a law unto themselves by following the law not knowing the law.
It states they show the work of the law that is written on their hearts. All Paul is telling us is they follow a law on their hearts that causes them to follow the precepts of God’s Law even though they do not have that law.
You can tell me the law is not done away with but that is not what I see. We are to follow the law which shows we now have His Spirit in us which causes us to do that. The law is what we will not be judged by because we are ubder grace by faith in Jesus.
YBIC,
Michael
205 Michael // Aug 23, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Typo,
I meant to say before Moses “received” the law, not “reveived.”
206 Peter // Aug 23, 2007 at 7:23 pm
I see different in Romans… I see a bigger picture in the context there especially since at the beginning he is speaking of his brothers according to the flesh whom it all belongs to, who are accursed because they have not come to know their Messiah.
Jesus stated in Matthew 5:17-19
17″Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18″For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19″Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Here we see that the Messiah didn’t do away with the Law… He came to fulfill it. We also see that anyone who teaches others to no keep the law and does not keep it themselves are called least in the kingdom of heaven… its not about salvation cause obviously they are in the kingdom… they are just least. Whatever it is to be least in the kingdom… I don’t want to find out.
As i’ve stated before, about there being no Church.. there is only one body of God and it is Believing Israel and it is only those who have come to faith in the Messiah whether of physical blood or not(gentile) like me. I believe everyone is grafted into the same tree which is Israel… btw no one gets replaced(just want to make that clear). Messiah is the mediator of a better covenant as stated in Hebrews and that same covenant is stated first in Jeremiah 31:31-33.
Although the new covenant has not been fully fulfilled(everyone one will know the Lord)… it is in effect. I don’t believe in dispensationalism or better put ‘time has defeated God’. I believe it has been in effect from the beginning. The reason for this is that these covenants are eternal meaning they exist outside of time. If they were based on a timing or time making them valid then that would mean that once time ends then the covenants do also.
The new covenant states the the Law will be written on Israels hearts… again you know where I am going with this…
I have a question for you… since you do believe in a ‘Church’… Who is the Church? Were the apostles who were Israel and Jews the church or Israel spoken of in scripture? Was the Messiah head of the church or Israel? What will be the churchs roll in the kingdom to come will they serve Israel?
peace
pete
207 Peter // Aug 23, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Michael,
I do want to mention I have had one the best fellowship discussions with you than most I have ever. It is making me ask a lot of questions also of what I believe… bless you brother.
pete
208 Joanna // Aug 23, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Why is it that “rapturites” are accused of being not-so-nice people, when it seems that, at least on this comment site, it’s actually those who disapprove of “rapturites” that are, shall I say, snippy (to understate it).
209 Michael // Aug 23, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Peter,
Thanks Brother.
All I want is to know the truth. If I can learn from you, and you can learn from me, we both come out ahead Peter.
I don’t seek anything but the truth and we are told His Spirit that indwells us is the Spirit of truth that will guide us into ALL truth, that is what I seek.
John 16:13;
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
And “things to come!”
May the Spirit of the Lord indwell you Peter and always cause you to seek the truth Brother. Bless you Peter.
YBIC,
Michael
210 Charles // Aug 24, 2007 at 1:24 am
Michael ,
I do agree that the rebuilding of the Building that the Jewish people will seek to worship in will not have a spiritual significance to Christians or God . The only part that I can see that it will fulfill is the Antichrist trying to show himself as God by taking the seat that only God would sit in . I believe at that time God will pour the darkness on the seat of the beast and the world will see him as he really is . That will be a chaotic time .
211 James Staten // Aug 24, 2007 at 1:56 am
Joanna, Maybe we should change that frome rapturite to rapturipe. Pun intended.
212 Al // Aug 24, 2007 at 6:08 am
Hello Charles (and everyone else for that matter!),
Blessings in Yeshua. Here is my two cents on what I have learned. I’ve been a believer in Yeshua since April 1982. I was born gentile. But I came to faith thru a Jewish ministry while attending Queens College in NYC. I met my wife in a Jewish Messianic synagogue in NY. These are but 2 signs that God has demonstrated to me that my focus or burden is for the salvation and restoration of the Jewish people. But I also pray for the gentiles that do not yet know Him.
“For I am not ashamed of the good news of Messiah, for it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. Romans 1:16
Like Frank, I do not consider this to be a religion. In a nutshell, when you become a follower of the Messiah of Israel, you enter into covenant relationship with the God of Israel who sent His Son the Messiah into the world so that sinners can be saved.
In His First Coming, He became the Suffering Servant (Isaiah 53)Who offered Himself as the Passover Lamb to atone for sin. He literally fulfilled the feast that Israel had been observing for centuries which comemorates the redemption of Israel from the power of Pharaoh, king of Egypt. As a memorial, we should observe the Passover since Yeshua instructed His disciples to now “do this in memory of me”. Not just the bread and grape juice. All of it. His resurrection fulfilled the Feast of Firstfruits which took place the day after the weekly Sabbath. 40 days later, Yeshua ascends into heaven. 10 days later on the day of Shavuot or Pentecost, the Ruach HaKodesh(Holy Spirit) is poured out with tongues of fire. The Torah actually states that this feast has several offering components including a burnt offering by fire(Leviticus 23:15-21) The believers obeying Yeshua by waiting in Jerusalem literally become “living sacrifices” unto God.
I have also learned that Yeshua’s 2nd coming will fulfill the Fall Feasts of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. The return of the Messiah is announced with the last trumpet. Yeshua mentions that after the tribulation, He would send His angels out with the sound of the shofar(trumpet) to gather His elect. The tribes of the land (of Israel) will mourn just as Zechariah 12 states. A fountain of cleansing will be available on that day(Yom Kippur). The 10 days of awe preceding this event will probably showcase final plagues of Revelation where even the sun and moon will no longer shine. Then the sign of the Son of Man. At this point He will be the only source of light, so there will be no doubt as to Who He is to those who see Him approaching. When His feet stand on the Mount of Olives, He will rid the world of His enemies, starting with the antimessiah and false prophet. Then Tabernacles will be fulfilled as Yeshua rules from the throne of David in Jerusalem. This is part 1 since I am about to run out of room.
213 Al // Aug 24, 2007 at 7:04 am
Part 2 of my response to Charles
Phew! This writing really wore me out.
You asked “where I can find out more about it?”.
One website I definitely recommend would be Lion and Lamb Ministries http://www.lionlamb.net/. Monte Judah is a wonderful teacher with great insights.
Most importantly, don’t just buy into whatever people say. Be diligent by reading the Bible carefully. The key for me is whenever I read the New Testament, I ask what part of the Hebrew scriptures is being referred to or is relevant. By doing that you will better understand all Scripture. When Shaul writes to the congregations, his approach is that of a Jewish rabbi since that’s what he was. Here’s an example: When Shaul(Paul) is writing to the Thessalonians in chapter 4 regarding the resurrection of the dead, he mentions the following: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet(shofar) of God.” Question: where is there an archangel mentioned in scripture? Answer: Jude, the archangel is Michael. Michael is mentioned in two other books, Daniel and Revelation. So what passage can Paul be refering to in Thes 4? Since Revelation has not been written yet, it must be Daniel. In terms of context, only Daniel 12 fits. Daniel is told that Michael will arise during the time of Israel’s and the world’s most dangerous period which is the same terminology used by Yeshua in Matt 24 regarding the great tribulation. Daniel 12 also mentions multitudes who sleep in the earth and will arise, both good and bad.
I know I’ve said a lot. I hope you find this info helpful to you.
Shalom in Yeshua, the Prince of Peace
214 Michael // Aug 24, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Charles,
Thanks for the reply. I disagree that the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is speaking of a literal stone temple. I fully believe it is speaking to believers who have been deceived into believing false doctrine.
There are more a couple of reasons I say this. The first being that the passage states;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The Greek noun that has been translated to say temple is “naos” and only means the holiest of holies. The innermost sanctuary. That is the only place it ever refers to, but, it is also used in defining the hearts of believers. It is also the same word Jesus used in John 2:19-21 descibing His body. It is also the only word used to define our “temples” as seen in 1 Cor. 3:16, Eph. 2:21, 1 Pet. 2:5.
Since the body of believers is the temple (naos) of God, and 2 Thess. 2:4 is clear it is the “temple of God”, how then can there be another “temple of God?”
I believe the terrible misinterpretation started by Darby and Anderson that antichrist is the “HE” of Daniel 9:27 who makes some seven year peace deal with Israel and “many” nations is totally false.
The “HE” Who confirmed the covenant is Jesus. In replacing Him with his enemy, and causing people to believe some seven year peace deal is coming, causes them to believe those passages are speaking to antichrist, not Jesus Christ.
The entire prophecy is about Israel and the holy city, nothing else, and the transgressions have not finished. Amos 2:6.
The first half of Daniel’s 70th week was Jesus 3 1/2 year ministry when He “preached the acceptable year of the Lord.” The second 3 1/2 years is Jacob’s trouble where the transgressions of Israel are dealt with.
The “sitting in the temple” is no different than thinking a story is about one individual when you discover the story was about another. It is misidentification.
If I hear a story and think it is about one individual and weeks later someone says, “No, that was not about them, it was about this other person.” For that period of time that misidentification “sat” on my mind and I was thinking the story was about the wrong person.
The passage also only says he “shews HIMSELF” he is God, nobody else.
Another distinct reason is the original passage in Greek says “the human OF THE son of destruction.”
The false prophet is the “human OF THE” and the son of destruction is Satan and he is who “sitteth” in the temple of God, not the human.
Satan and the spirit of antichrist are just that, spirits, and if we believe who is being spoken to in Daniel is not Jesus, then whoever you believe it is, that individual now sitteth in you mind as who is being talked about.
The temple of God is only one thing now, the body of believers.
YBIC,
Michael
215 James Staten // Aug 24, 2007 at 7:39 pm
D.L. Moody, whom we know to be an ignorant man of yesteryear speaking on Darby’s works said, ” if they could not be replaced, I would rather part my entire library, excepting my Bible than these writings. They have been to me a very key to the scriptures.” Darby had 53 volumes including everything from a complete translation of the Bible to a volume of verse. It has been stated that Darby was a brilliant man. He was a Lawyer. Also, he was very fluent in Greek and Hebrew. It would not probably be a stretch to assume that he even dreamt in Greek and Hebrew.
216 Michael // Aug 24, 2007 at 9:34 pm
John Nelson Darby took “sound doctrine” that had been endured for over 1,800 years (2 Tim. 4:3) and twisted it into his heretical teachings creating Darbyism in the Plymouth Brethren.
I am well versed on Darby and his cohorts who formed this sect.
It matters not of the man spoke Yiddish and dreamt in Chinese, Hebrew, Greek and three dimensional technicolor, his teachings are heresy.
If Dwight Moody chose to follow the teachings of a man who was looked at by his contemporaries, like C. H. Spurgeon, to be a heretic and nothing shy of a cult wherein they proclaim, just as Jehovah’s Witnesses do, they and they alone are the “chosen” of God, I would label Moody’s teaching suspect also. I do know he taught the “HE” of the covenant was not the Messiah, so it seems Darby infected him too.
Read the following quote from Spurgeon’s own July 1869 “Sword and the Trowel” in an assessment of Darby and his followers.
“Darbyism has so changed them as to quench every earnest purpose, to make them live only for the mutual edification of their narrow clique, and render them oblivious to the claim of the perishing millions around them. From being successful workers in the Master’s cause, they have settled down at their ease in Zion, only to make a spasmodic effort when the Spirit moves them, which is very seldom. Were these brethren to allow the same liberty to others that they claim for themselves, we should not complain, but this they refuse—”They are the people,” every other Christian is wrong; no matter how earnestly a man is working, or how many souls are added to the Lord by his ministry, if he cannot utter the Shibboleth of Darbyism, he is counted the veriest heretic.”
LINK: http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/dbreth2.htm
His teachings turned the sound doctrine into a heretical teaching that took Jesus the Christ of God and the covenant sent by God (Isa. 42:6, 49:8, Gal. 3:17, Rom. 15:8, Mt. 26:28 & Mk. 14:24) out of His own Word and thus denying His finished work.
Your praisee of Darby fall to the following from 1 Cor. 3:19;
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Darby and Sir Robert Anderson have done more to cause division and derision within the body then anyone else since Hymenaeus and Alexander.
In Christ Jesus,
Michael
217 James Staten // Aug 24, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Have you ever read the previous verse? I Cor. 3:18 Speaking of cults there seems to be a cult of people who want to blame Darby for the Pre-trib rapture. Last week I gave you a list of many people throughout Church history who taught this from scripture, yet no reply. It would seem to give Darby the heretic label for this is twisting the truth.
218 Charles // Aug 25, 2007 at 1:08 am
Somebody is going to look misled when the Temple of God is rebuilt . The fact is that the Jews think that you and I have been received already by the New Testament Jesus . They are operating under the Law of Moses and will rebuild the Temple as soon as they can deal with the Arab threat . Surely you are aware of their ongoing efforts to research the blood lines of people who will build and serve in the Temple . The Sanhedrin believes that they are to rebuild the Temple and what you see as a Christian they can not see , remember that they are still blind to Jesus as being the Lord God . I do believe that this upcoming conflict ( Not Gog and Magog ) will usher in the (man) Antichrist . He is not a spirit or vision he will be the reciprocal of Jesus who will walk this earth but will receive the earth . Daniel 11 verse 37 states that he will not regard the God of his fathers (he is of Jewish descent)nor the desire of women ( he is a man in the flesh ) . Please explain how he can sit in mans soul being that evil already exist, how would this be different ? How can a spirit be relative in any way to sexual preferences .
I do wonder if there has been some slight changes of definitions of languages over the last 2000 years such as English as suffered. After all look who is in charge of this world .
219 Charles // Aug 25, 2007 at 1:11 am
The last post was supposed to read (the fact is that the Jews believe that you and I have been deceived by the New Testament Jesus ) .
220 Michael // Aug 25, 2007 at 2:19 am
James,
I have no idea what it is you are referring to. If you “gave me a list” why not restate that “list?” I do not recall nor do I see it “listed” here.
And yes I have read the previous verse, perhaps darby did not. Darby is a Scripture twisting hetertic just as his contemporaries stated. UHMM? No response you who seem bent on dancing around yet never making your point. BTW, just what is your point?
Charles,
I am quite certain many have already been misled as there will NEVER be a “temple of God” made by human hands rebuilt.
Perhaps you did not read the verses from God’s own Word in Acts 7:48 and 17:24;
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
God will NOT dwell in a temple made with hands so how then is it the “temple of God?’ Somehow I missed your answer to that question prior.
God even stated He will not be worshipped by human hands in the very next verse so forgive me, I am at a loss in trying to understand just how a “temple of God” will ever again be established here on earth.
You both seem so set and convinced, why not show me where in the Lord’s Word that might be. I cannot find it. You badger me yet never seem to be able to come up with the passages in God’s Word that support your statements. After all, is it not His Word we are discussing? Maybe that point escaped your notice.
You have never once replied with one passage from God’s Word, only baseless retorts. How about some Biblical evidence fellas?
And your question:
“Please explain how he can sit in mans soul being that evil already exist, how would this be different ? How can a spirit be relative in any way to sexual preferences .”
Easy, the spirit of antichrist sits in a man’s heart when, as I stated, you place the wrong identifying factor on just who is being spoken about. Take a passage speaking of Jesus and in your mind you say it is Satan that verse speaks to, now Satan “sitteth” where he does not belong.
And if you understood the Greek it has not one thing to do with sexual preferences. That is telling in itself, where is your head at?
I said prior, the Nebrew translated as “desire” is “chemdah” and means: precious
Islam does not revere women as precious objects. They consider them less than their Camels and on a par with a possession to be tossed out when done with. There is no sexual conotation even remotely alluded to.
Michael
221 Michael // Aug 25, 2007 at 2:40 am
Just a point of beginning,
If you are strapped for a start point, since you seem so rapt with Darby, how about explaining the response from his own contempraries that he was an elitist heretic?
They knew him best and cared not for his brand of elitist “cultism” so how about explaining that. I noticed your complete avoidance in your response.
Is that not a simple enough request?
In Chist Jesus,
Michael
222 Charles // Aug 25, 2007 at 4:52 am
Michael ,
I’ll not badger you anymore brother ,but you evidently did not consider that the building of the Temple does not mean that He will come . The principle party my friend is the Antichrist that will sit in the Temple . The Lord will build the 3rd Temple in heaven, not by the hands of man . When they built the Golden Calf in the desert God did not inhabit it . God has not requisitioned the Temple and the Sanhedrin should know that . But that will not deter them from doing so . I guess that we will not agree on everything . I can’t understand how the false prophet and the beast will interact to deceive the world and to have all the answers as well as bring a false peace, place the world under the system of and cause the world to take the mark of the beast , be seen that the beast appears to have a deadly head wound without being manifested in the flesh . But I see your point , if you believe that he is flesh(as a mimic of Jesus who will return in the Flesh that He left with ) then you will have to agree that there will be a third temple for him to sit in . BTW no sale on your Islam does not regard women. When Daniel was describing the Antichrist , he was trying to tell us something remarkable or notable about this person that would help us to identify him . I’m sure that you have researched Dajjal and the Islamic view of the conflict ahead . So long
223 Joyce // Aug 25, 2007 at 7:14 am
Michael, if the antichrist is just a spirit, then how do you explain Matthew 24:15? Where it says, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)” And it also says this in Mark 13:14, “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:” It seems to me, that those two verses shows, that the antichrist is a man, and not a spirit. Because you can’t see a spirit, and it says plainly in both verses, that you will “see the abomination of desolation.” So what is your explanation, as to what the scripture says, in these two verses? God bless.
224 Richard // Aug 25, 2007 at 8:50 am
Hi Frank & Al,
Frank you asked the question: “What continent are you on? I live in Southern Australia.
Now, guys, I have a question that has puzzled me for a while. It revolves around Daniel 11:40-45.
Who is the King of the North?
Who is the King of the South?
I am no Bible ‘expert’ on any level and my educational qualifications are very low. All I have to go on is ‘gut instinct’ and what I am able to learn from current events going on around the world at this current time.
Therefore as I understand things the King of the North is the European Union, lead by Germany under the control of Rome.
The King of the South is radicalised Islam lead by Iran.
The “tidings out of the east and out of the north” in 11:44 are reports that the King of the North (being the anti-Christ) receives about the coming military forces from Russia, the Caucuses and China descending down from the upper most parts of the North and from the East to wipe him and his forces out.
Also could it be that the Daniel 11:40-45 war takes place as a follow-on from the war described in Isaiah 33, Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 & Zechariah 9?
What I see going on every day around me is a situation where the ‘West’ is becoming weaker and weaker, Russia and China are becoming stronger and stronger. The State of Israel is being lead by people who for whatever reason simply do not want to see what is happening around them and think that appeasement and cowardice will give them peace in return!
Then there’s Islam. It is going from strength to strength. Where ever it is fighting it is winning. It is becoming stronger militarily, with the help of Russia and China, and is gaining power in many new areas. The Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt is surely not far off taking over in Egypt. Lebanon is surely about to collapse under the growing pressure of Hezbollah and Iraq is little by little being dominated by Shiite lead Iran.
The European Union is sooner rather than later going to have to decide what it is to do with its Muslim populations otherwise Catholicism may face being populated out of existence?
So, because of these observations I see the above course of events quite possible. What do you think?
Regards
Richard.
225 Michael // Aug 25, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Charles,
The antichrist is ONLY a spirit. It is only spoken of as a spirit. It is the spirit of antichrist (against Christ) that indwells the false prophet.
Have you never considered why in Revelation 19:20 why only the beast and the false prophet are tossed into the lake of fire?
That “beast” is the spirit of antichrist. The beast is the spirit from Satan that indwells the false prophet.
The “head wounded unto death” is the spirit of antichrist that has power over men to cause the second death. It s also the “beast that was and is not and yet is” seen in Rev. 13:3 and 17:8.
Have you not noticed in Rev. 13:14 the “wound” was caused by the Sword? That sword is Jesus and He took the power of death from that spirit entity that is part of the Satanic godhead. Did you never wonder what was meant by “was, and is not and yet is?”
For those who are born again and inwdwelt by His Spirit, that “beast” has no power over. In essene it is dead, yet it still does have power over non-believrs and as Rev. 17:8 states, it will ascend out of the pit. Well what/who is the only entity tossed into the pit? Satan as seen in Rev. 19:20 and he rises up again after the 1,000 years.
BTW, I fully believe Islam is the beast from the earth that is the earthly embodiment of Satanic rule. It’s leader will be the 12th Imam. Did it not accur just where Islam was birthed and where they claim lineage to? Abraham by Hagar. The God of their fathers, the true God is who Islam nor the FP will regard. They say God is monotheist, not triune. They worship Satan and call him Allah.
The beast in the sea is so smple it astounds me nobody sees it. Isaiah told us who it is in Isaiah 27:1;
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Satan is the dragon, the serpent or the devil and he is “in the sea.” That “sword?” Jesus, the Word of God.
Joyce, the
abomination” can only be Islamic Satanic rule and worship set up over Judea and Samaria, the home of the last place the Lord’s feet stood on earth and where He will return.
The Greek that is translated as “standing” is “histemi” and it means:
“to establish a thing, cause it to stand”
It doesw not mean a building but an ordinace or rule of law.
The abomination is not a man. As I said before if God will never dwell in a builing made with hands then it cannot be Holy because His Spirit is not there. If His Spirit is not there, nor ever will be, how then can something in a building He will have no part of, cause it to be an abomination?
The only place that could be considered Holy would be where His feet are to set down on this earth. That is the mount of Olives.
Charles,
I believe Arabia (Gal. 4:24 & 25) is the King of the south and Iran the north.
YBIC,
Michael
226 Michael // Aug 25, 2007 at 1:55 pm
I wanted to add one thing for consideration. Saudi Arabia has always been called the “Southern Kingdom” by Islam. Islam was birthed in Medina and Mecca Arabia.
Edom extended south of the Dead Sea into Arabia and we are told in Gaatians 4:25;
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Children under the law, not the promise. Read Ezekiel 35 and see Edom, Esaau and mount Seir as Islam.
Consider the “two horns” of the beast from the earth as Shiite and Sunni Islam. One beast, two factions. Just consider it and remember who is the only earthly entity bent on eliminating Israel.
That entity is Islam.
YBIC,
Michael
227 James Staten // Aug 25, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Michael you might very well be correct in most of your studies, but I refuse to sit here and continually hear you and other people always say the Pre-trib rapture was fathered by John Darby. I am referring to Post 122 from a week or so ago when I responded to the first time you raked Darby across the coals. It has been awhile since I read about him , to the best of my memory he is also one of the first to bring the biblical teaching back to the forefront that God is not through with Israel. Jesus is Coming…Keep Looking Up
228 James Staten // Aug 25, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Al, I must say that I line up which much of your understanding. I have no doubt that the Lord will return on one of the remaining Feasts of Israel. Keep Looking Up
229 Charles // Aug 25, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Al ,
When you say Messiah do you mean Jesus Christ whom was crucified on Golgotha ? I have had conversations with different people that said that they are not reverencing Jesus or the Gentile Jesus .
Also are you saying that Christians should remain in Jerusalem until He comes ? I do agree that the (pretribulation rapture ) is not regarded in the Bible and in fact mid or post tribulation harvest is indicated in several places . Interesting sites; Dajjal and Digital Angel are enlightning as to the Islamic view of the future . and the Mark of the beast device .
230 Al // Aug 25, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Hi Charles and everyone listening,
For the record, whenever I mention Yeshua or Messiah, yes I am referring to Jesus of Nazareth. I prefer to use His Hebrew name because that is the name He was actually given. It was the name that He was known by while He lived on the earth and even after the resurrection and ascension. Why we need to refer to Him using an English translation of a Greek translation is beyond me. We need to present Him as Israel’s Messiah as well as the Son of the living God and God literally in the flesh(John 1) His Hebrew name actually has great significance. It literally means “Yahweh(I am that I am) saves”. This is important because it all has to do with identity. His name identifies Him with the One true God who appeared to the patriarchs, Moses, David and all the Hebrew prophets.
I believe we need to restore the usage of His real name in the body so that Israel will provoked to jealousy. The Jewish people don’t identify with Him partly because the Messiah that Christians say they follow doesn’t even appear or sound Jewish. Gentile believers need to remember we are the wild and unnatural branches that have been grafted into the olive tree which is the “Israel of God”, His Body. Yeshua said in John 15 that He is the vine and believers are the branches. The branches are Jewish believers (natural) and Gentile believers(unnatural). In a nutshell, this describes the total body of Messiah. There has always been a Jewish remnant of believers. Shaul writing to the Gentile believers in Rome uses himself as an example that God has not totally rejected physical Israel. Read chap 11. This is another reason why I reject the pretrib rapture theory and why I believe it is actually anti-Semitic in nature, whether intentional or not.
Shaul also warns the Gentile believers not to boast over the natural branches in the same chapter. He even warns against becoming conceited over the fact that most of Israel is hardened regarding their Messiah. It is a temporary condition until the fullness of the Gentiles are grafted in. This is simply God’s mercy to the nations in order to save as many from around the world. But because of His promise to the patriarchs, He will restore Israel not just as a remnant but completely. Meaning that at the time of Yeshua’s return, all of the surviving 1/3 of the Jews at that time will turn to Him just as Zechariah prophecies.
What do you all think? My apologies in advance to any pretribbers.
231 Al // Aug 25, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Michael, In response to comment #225
You stated that the antichrist is a spirit? 1 John 2:18 clearly states “Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour”.
A few verses later Yochanan(John) adds “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah. Such a man is the antichrist- he denies the Father and the Son.”
Man, not a spirit.
Yes, the beast, antimessiah, antichrist, will be a literal man.
Let’s not metaphorize something quite tangible.
When Yeshua warned about the abomination of desolation, Yochanan happened to be there on the Mt of Olives with the other disciples. He heard Yeshua confirm that the reference was from the book of Daniel. Daniel 9:27 states that the abomination will occur at or near an altar where offerings and sacrifices are made. Daniel 12:11 states “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up(I believe this is a reference to what Yochanan wrote about in Revelation 13 as the image of the beast), there will be 1290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1335 days.”
The context does not support that the antichrist or his image are allegorical or spiritual in nature. It makes no sense.
232 Charles // Aug 25, 2007 at 10:19 pm
I agree Al .
233 Charles // Aug 25, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Al I agree on your comments 230 & 231 and I am not a prescriber . I can’t see how anyone that reads the Bible can come to the theory of pretribulation rapture . I believe that it could be a real problem when they feel like they have been left behind or outright lied to by someone they should have been able to trust . The pretribbers remind me of the Five foolish virgins who think that the Lord would be not likely to keep them waiting . The Revelations of Jesus (Matt 24) spells it out well . Keep up the good work .
234 Al // Aug 26, 2007 at 12:59 am
Charles,
Sorry that I failed to answer your other question “Also are you saying that Christians should remain in Jerusalem until He comes ?”. My answer is no. It is not necessary to be in Jerusalem until the end. However, if you happen to be in Jerusalem when the abomination of desolation takes place, get out fast! Yeshua warned His disciples to flee to the mountains at that point. Hope this answers your question. No matter where we are when this happens, we need to be alert and ready, just like the 5 virgins who had their lamps and extra oil waiting for the bridegroom, because the Messiah is about to return to establish His kingdom on the earth, starting in Jerusalem.
Hopefully people will be encouraged and edified by what we are discussing on this forum. We should not be afraid to correct when we hear false doctrine because people need to hear the truth so that they equipped to deal with what’s going to happen during the last days.
235 Charles // Aug 26, 2007 at 3:34 am
Al ,
I just don’t know why preachers cling to the rapture theory and other non supported theories . I do think that the pastors feel that people will migrate to the church that will preach the easy way out . I think the people should be told the truth now and not find out when its to late . I believe that they can handle it .
236 Michael // Aug 26, 2007 at 4:19 am
Interesting fellas.
Never once have I even remotely stated one word about a pre-anything rapture. No surprising reading your posts that you seem perfectly content trying to put words in my mouth.
Al,
There is not one word in the original writings that states the antichrist is a man.
The passage in 1 John 2:22 states:
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
The originl text states: “tis (any) esti (to be, is) ho ( the) psuestes (falsifier) “
“Any is the falsifier …”
There is not one singular masculine noun saying “Such a MAN” as who an antichrist is.
The only four times “antichrist” is mentioned it is used speaking of a spirit. I asked, and as usual, instead of answering my question you defer to raising a non-relevany question instead of responding to the question I asked. Perhaps you might delineate between who the one man is compared to who John says “even now are there MANY antichrists have come.” Why back then where there “MANY” and now there will be but one? Perhaps you might explain that.
Or how about the passae from 1John 4:3 which you conveniently ignored:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Every “SPIRIT” and “that SPIRIT” is now in the world. Could you please show me one verse that says it is a man. All I find is that it is a spirit. And is this singular terrible entity is a human man, could you explain where he magically disappears to when the “beast” and “false prophet” are tossed into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20)?”
There is not one passage that says this “antichrist” is anything but spirit.
Al and Charles,
Can either of you stay on the subject? All you do is high five each other for being so agreeable, yet, you neve answer a question. Instead you respond by posing another unrelated. You seem pretty proud you both do not believe any “rapture” theory and seem only intent on abasing any comment about anything that remotely hints of that.
You are like two little dogs running up and down the fence barking becuse someone else is in the next yard. No content, no meaningful discourse, no response to questions just noise and unrelated questions. Pat yourselves on the back, you are right, the world is wrong according to Al and Charles.
Michael
237 Al // Aug 26, 2007 at 4:31 am
Charles ,
The reason why they preach this easy believism is because they are afraid to be persecuted. They are also afraid to offend congregants who contribute generously for having their ears tickled with fables. They would rather be comfortable than uncomfortable. Apparently they do not believe Shaul in 2 Timothy 3 when he says “all who live godly in Messiah Yeshua will suffer persecution.” It’s OK if believers in other parts of the world suffer for their faith. It’s even OK to send missionaries to those parts of the world. The American church has fallen asleep. Guess what? We will pay for our ignorance and arrogance. We expect the blessings of Abraham but refuse to identify with Abraham’s children. We applaud when our gov’t forces Israel to give up the land that God gave to them through His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
By the way, I do believe the rebirth of Israel in 1948 is ordained of God. Whether the U.N. realized it at the time, this was the beginning of the restoration of Israel We are privileged to be the generation of watchmen who will not cease lifting up our voices until the Lord returns to Zion and with our own eyes see it happening (Isaiah 52:8).
238 Al // Aug 26, 2007 at 7:35 am
Michael,
That was quite a mouthful!
I will attempt to answer your questions and comments.
Regarding calling you a pretribber, I myself never referred to you specifically in that way. But for the record I am a post tribber for the reasons I stated in my earlier postings.
Regarding the issue of the “antichrist” I looked at the passages in 1 John. The only one that clearly mentions the “spirit of antichrist” is 1 John 4:3. You used this as a reference in your posting. Clearly there is a spirit of antichrist. So I actually agree with you on that.
The other three passages do not emphatically state or refer to a spirit. You stated that it literally says “any is the falsifier” and not “a man”. Granted. The interpretation of this verse standing on its own merits as not referring to “man” is not conclusive. It could refer to man or spirit.
As to the passage regarding the beast(of the sea) and false prophet(beast of the earth) from Revelation and where the antichrist magically disappears to, the beast and antichrist are one and same person.
The Greek word “therion” meaning wild beast refers to the beast.
So the antichrist does not magically disappear. He is thrown alive into the lake of fire along with the false prophet when Yeshua returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Greek word used is “pseudoprophetes” literally a religious impostor. He is the false prophet promoting a false messiah who in turn is empowered by the dragon, Satan. Again Yeshua warned about false messiahs and false prophets before His return
Regarding Charles and I high-fiving each other, Charles posed a question about whether the Messiah I refer to is Jesus of Nazareth in posting #229 and I responded accordingly. I am not looking for compliments. I am simply sharing what I believe the Lord has shown me, esp in regard to the last days.
I thought that’s why we were here. To share information and hopefully be a help to one another. Calling Charles and I “dogs” seems to indicate that you are clearly offended by our positions. As far as content and context, with all due respect, I know what I am talking about.
You seem uncomfortable with the idea that as a gentile, I choose to identify with the Jewish people. I identify with Yeshua, who was and is and always will be a Jew. This is a Jewish gospel about the Jewish Messiah and how He came into the world to save sinners, both Jew and Gentile. You claim to identify with Messiah. Are you suggesting that His Jewishness has no value?
As far as making “noise” is concerned, I plan to make a whole lot more before I am done.
239 Joyce // Aug 26, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Michael,
Your rude remarks to Charles and Al are uncalled for. There was no reference to you, mentioned in their discussion about the pre-trib rapture. I believe, they should be able to discuss other subjects, without you degrading them. And I feel, that such unwarranted hostility against your brothers in Christ is very wrong.
240 James Staten // Aug 26, 2007 at 3:12 pm
All this and Heaven too!!!
241 Charles // Aug 26, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Michael ,
I’m sorry , I didn’t know that you were the author and orator of this blog topic . You have it all figured out , for you. Now all you need to do is work on your Christian attitude . You need to realize that you and your source’s are interpreters nothing more . As far as going back to the Greek text, are we sure of today’s interpretation 2500 years later . I’m sure that you will find in the Bible that the Holy Spirit will comfort and instruct you. Man will only lead you astray .
242 Charles // Aug 26, 2007 at 7:56 pm
You have taken the scripture Rev 19 verse 20 and used it to re-enforce a point that you are trying to make . I feel that you should have included the whole verse and in context . The beast and antichrist were thrown in to the Lake of Fire ((ALIVE)) and with the verse from Revelations 20 verse 10 says that Satan , the False prophet and the Beast are cast into the Lake of Fire . Now ALIVE defines a state of fleshly existences . The same as the Lord Jesus was . The first death takes away life , the second death is a spiritual death. Those two went straight to spiritual death . That should have been you argument if (alive) had not been spelled out in Rev. 19 verse 20. Please contemplate how a spiritual being would implement the Mark of the Beast preform all of those signs and wonders the deceives so many . Do you believe that the Lord Jesus could have accomplished the task that God gave Him as a spirit being only ? You should be a humble servant of the Lord ever learning, ever searching , ever seeking ,putting away self and raising up the Lord.
243 Anne // Aug 27, 2007 at 7:50 am
Michael,
Concerning the ANTICHRIST.
Who: the questioning of identification of a human
Was: the past existence (could mean- now dead)
..AND IS NOT, AND YET IS. ( A clone from some DNA might fulfill this one just fine…..) with all lying signs and wonders.)
Had you ever thought along these lines?
244 Frank // Aug 27, 2007 at 9:22 am
Concerning the ‘Anti-Christ’….
Just as Yeshua the Messiah came in the ‘flesh’, so will this one. So much has been written in speculative sense, but the Greek word clearly shows that it speaks of a human person. The correct meaning of the word antichristos is ‘replacement christ or messiah - in other words, a counterfeit. Take a good hard look at Islam… from its very inception the religion has replaced everything the Bible teaches - including that perversion that is standing on the Temple Mount. Even now, christian leaders are falling over each other in confirming Islam to be not much different from Biblical faith and certainly none between the Elohim of Abraham and the Allah of Muhammad.
Be not surprised if one should arise from that quarter and the world will run after him! The spririt of anti-messiah is certainly alive among them.
The deception is at work among us - and has been for a long time - because truth is no longer important as long our Constantinian theology is being upheld.
Paul states it very clearly in 2 Thess.2:6-12 that GOD will send a delusion upon the church because the love of the truth is no longer in us.
I applaud what is happening on this blog, for our only hope of making sense of the mess Christianity is in, is in honest and humble dialogue.
Bless you Charles, Richard, Al and others who are walking in this way.
Shalom in Messiah Yeshua
Frank
245 James Staten // Aug 27, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Ya’ll have done run him off. Either that or he perhaps is part of the secret rapture. I wish he would have responded to my post of 122. Jesus is Coming..Keep Looking Up
246 Peter // Aug 27, 2007 at 6:07 pm
My view on the anti-christ is somewhat a mix…. I see him as both spirit and in flesh just as a mimic of the true Messiah Jesus. At least I think he would have to be to deceive since he has to try and mimic the prophecies and ministry of the True Messiah Jesus.
2 Thess. 2:3,4
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
As I said before I believe it will the Satan basically manifested in the Flesh trying to Mimic God manifested in the Flesh.
Cause it says he is revealed… a son(person) of destruction vs a son of God.
Notice he seats himself in the temple of God displaying himself… hes on display…
Notice he is Lawless… Lawlessness or not obeying the Law of God is apostasy. Sadly many churches today believe/mistranslated scripture to their destruction that the Law of God was nailed to cross. Thats called apostasy.
So I see this as a double fold, another words Lawlessness in the heart of believers today is the work of the Antichrist,,, at the same time I believe a fleshly manifestation of this evil one will come in flesh trying to mimic God and even claiming he is.
…
peter
247 Charles // Aug 27, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Michael ,
You have your views and we have ours and I guess that we will not always agree on everything . No man has all the answers but we can still fellowship with each other in the love and spirit of the Lord . Many preachers believe that the Gospel of Christ has already been spread throughout the world, I beg to differ , Revelations 14 verse 6 tells me that the Gospel of Jesus will be spread by the 144,000 who will deliver His word without mixture , undiluted and the True Word of our Lord Jesus . Then we all will have the truth . Until then we all need each other, for we are all children of our Lord .
248 Frank // Aug 28, 2007 at 3:48 am
Peter,
The word ‘lawlessness’ most likely refers to being without the Torah - not an absence of civil law. We are living at a time that is so clearly foreshadowed in Ps 2 when the entire world is turning against the God of the Bible and His Messiah. The word Torah literally means ‘Instruction’ - therefore choosing to be without God’s instructions is inviting the counterfeit, or replacement messiah. Couple that with a lack of desire for truth and the world - including the church - is ripe for the Great Deception.
Keep up the good work brothers in studying the Word and searching for the truth.
Shalom
Frank
249 Charles // Aug 28, 2007 at 4:09 am
Frank ,
The Holy Spirit is also the instructor as well as the comforter .
250 peter // Aug 28, 2007 at 7:38 am
I agree Frank… i just call it the Law of God… when I say that, I mean the whole Law not just the 10 commandments…
peter
251 Charles // Aug 29, 2007 at 2:27 am
James ,
you may be right .
252 Nerah // Sep 4, 2007 at 9:57 am
Nathan,
Two house theory is a movement who believes judah is the Jewish people but Ephraim or Israel is the church, they believe the 10 tribes are lost for good, which can not be so since they are returning to Israel. Also there is the belief that Britain and America are Jewish because they are of Ephraim. This is just totally twisting scripture. Yes there were 2 kingdoms Judah and Israel, North and south however they were and will always be Jewish, no matter where they are currently living, Without Jewish blood we cannot be of either tribe, just adopted, joint heirs. I apologize if I misinterpreted your beliefs.
Michael, it seems you keep claiming that I am mixing the church with the jewish people and i will say for the last time i am in no way doing that. I believe the gentile believers are as i said jont heirs, grafted in, full new covenant benefits. I am just pointing out that if we join ourselves to/with the Jewish people and the Jewish God and the Jewish Messiah we are part of them, by adoption not blood. Yes I said Jewish God. God is very jewish not “churchish, or churchianity”
and i agree I believe I am done on this thread with you. But i pray you are blessed.
253 peter // Sep 4, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Hey Nerah,
I wanted to say not all Two House theorist believe that the church is the new northern kingdom(and yes a lot do).
I wanted to basically point out one thing. You said
“Yes there were 2 kingdoms Judah and Israel, North and south however they were and will always be Jewish, no matter where they are currently living,”
Mainly where you said even the Northern Kingdom will always be Jewish. Which is not true. Jewish or Jew comes from the word Judah or Yehudah-Judah or Jew-Yehudi, the point being made here is that Jews only come from one tribe and that is the tribe of Judah. The rest of the tribes are not Jewish, actually stating that they are in someway is taking away there seperate and distinguished blessings and callings.
Keep in mind the blessings.
peace
pete
254 Nerah // Sep 12, 2007 at 11:35 am
Peter,
Israel, all of it north and south are Jewish, yes Jew comes from the word Judah however originally the Hebrews or eber, the first one being Abraham was a Jew, you know the father, patriarch of all Jews. In 2chronicles 11, 15, 30 and 34, it discusses a “remnants” of the other tribes joining with Judah, also Ezra discuss all of Israel going to Jerusalem, as one with judah. This would make Judah or the Jews all of the Hebrews at that time, the were named after Judah because of the land was Judea, and Judah the man and tribe originally and mostly because Yeshua is of the tribe of Judah. Judah and israel were used interchangeably after Babylonian captivity however that said we can see more of the tribes are returning and i believe more will. They all call themselves Jewish no matter what tribe they are from. the Jews in Ethiopia call themselves or are called by others Jews. Read 2 chronicles 21 to see how Israel is identified with Judah from the house of David. I realize most either believe they have already become one or will in the future and the 10 tribes are still out there. I actually believe that a remnant joined Judah long ago yet many who were dispersed are being found and will join them also. However are they lost without identity, no it seems those tribes that are being found know thier identity and are very much Jewish. Also Jewish can refer to someone in Judaism (convert or blood) which is the covenantal religion of God. Also look in the new covenant where those of other tribes are such as Asher are mentioned and Israel and Judah also are used interchangeably. Paul also Jew from the tribe of Benjamin.
Blessings,
תמרה
255 peter // Sep 12, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Hey Nerah,
I realize this is the most spread belief that they are just called Jews and that somehow they intermixed and just took the Jewish identity upon them. This is a scary way to look at this though since it stirs towards destroying some of the messianic prophecies.
I will start towards the beginning where you said Abraham was a Jew… This is not scriptural at all in fact Abraham was a Gentile. Somewhere from the region of modern day Saudi Arabia and Iraq. He became a Hebrew when we crossed over not a Jew. Jews were not born yet. Because Isaac was not born yet which means Jacob was not born yet which means Judah was not born yet…. where the Jews come from.
The lost 10 tribes are still scattered spoken of in the prophets all over… losing their identity. The bible clearly makes a distinction between the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
As for Paul calling himself a Jew goes back to the time of Jeroboam and Rehoboam. Benjamin stayed with the House of Judah during this division. This means Paul called himself of Jew acknowledging which kingdom he was of the House of Judah… physically he was not a Jew though he was a Benjamite of the tribe of Benjamin.
I also wanted to mention that the prophecy and firstborn blessing that was given to Ephraim was that he would become a Multitude of Nations. We have approximately 14million to 18million Jews in the world today. This number only makes up a few Big Cities around the world not nations. It says its descendants would be as the sands of the sea and that no one could number them.
So clearly the 10 Northern Tribes the House of Israel has still not recovered its identity yet cause it is huge and of the greatest messianic prophecies written in almost all of the prophets is that the Messiah will regather those Lost Tribes that is a massive multitude. At this regathering is the Return of the Messiah so we know this also hasn’t happened yet.
Shalom Aleichem,
Peter
256 Nerah // Sep 20, 2007 at 7:51 pm
I believe I made it clear I fully believe the prophecy of the 10 tribes returning. It is happening now and those who deny it are blind to the obvious i believe. The main point is that all of the 12 Tribes call themselves Jews. I also made it clear Abraham was a Hebrew:eber however he clearly was the first Jew recieving the Abrahamic covenant and Moses recieving the Mosaic covenant, 2 of the covenantal basis for judaism and who is a Jew. Hebrew,Jewish, Israel they are the same all of Israel are God’s chosen. Yes at times there are distinctions made throughout the Bible 0f the 2 kingdoms yet they are also used interchangeably in many places. Both kingdoms are God’s chosen and He clearly never desired a separation of the two. thus He is/will rejoin them completely. What about the Jew from the tribe of Asher how do yo justify that one? just curious. Again I point out ask a Jewish believer who they believe the Jews are. How is the word used today? When people refer to a Jewish person they are talking about all 12 of God’s chosen tribes.
Blessings
257 Peter // Sep 21, 2007 at 1:01 am
Dear Nerah,
I understand that you look at it this way, but it is not scriptural. Study some of the Orthodox Rabbis take on this such as Yair Davidy… even the older ones such as Hillel. There is clearly a distinction between the Jews and the rest of the tribes. Jews come from the term/tribe Judah or in Hebrew Yehudah,,, Jew in hebrew is Yehudi. The rest of the tribes are not Yehudah or Yehudi so that puts that out of place in that simple fact. Saying that they are all Jews is not scriptural. You said Abraham was a Jew because of the Abrahamic Covenant, simply wrong he was a Hebrew as scripture says. Judaism does say he is a jew, but that is no where in scripture and like I said earlier this undermines messianic prophecies. Show me a scripture that losing their identity(10 Northern Tribes) relates to them taking on the name Jew???
When you go to study further on this try not to read the Two House theories by messianics who claim to be Ephraim…which I do not agree with… Read the Two House theories of some of the Rabbis of old for a better understanding on this, btw they do not call them Jews.
Show me a scripture of a Jewish Believer from the Tribe of Asher?
Second show me a scripture where God calls all the tribes and summons them as Jews. you said, “clearly was the first Jew recieving the Abrahamic covenant” Show me where clearly Abraham was the first Jew in the bible. I don’t care what man makes up or thinks… God declares whose who not Man, not Christianity, not Judaism…etc. Just because some Jews or people who dont know what the scripture says call Abraham a Jew does not make him one.
“When people refer to a Jewish person they are talking about all 12 of God’s chosen tribes.” This means nothing, but instead shows that many people do not know the scriptures. We need to read the scriptures for what they say not what we think they say.
Also there is a simple prophecy of this in Genesis when the blessings are handed down… The firstborn blessing went to Ephraim and he was not Jewish… the blessing that went with it was that he would become a multitude of nations, just ephraim not including the 9 others.
Today we have enough Jews in the world to make up the City of London. This is not a multitude of nations as described.
Peter
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