Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Mualem Saturday indicated his nation is ready to resume some kind of peace process with Israel. That news got Israeli ultra-leftists, some foreign diplomats, and the mainstream media all excited.
But this purported peace overture must be seen as a deception, just like every one before it.
First of all, it was not made in a spirit of mutual responsibility and bilateral give-and-take. Rather, al-Mualem indicated the peace process must be resumed on Arab terms, which the international community will have to impose upon Israel and its American allies.
“If (the international community) has the desire and the decisiveness to do so, it could turn this into a real chance for peace, and fix the region’s problems. If the international community decides not to, because of Israeli and dominating US pressure, I am certain that this opportunity will be lost.”
Second, Damascus continues to harbor and assist organizations openly dedicated to the destruction of Israel, such as Hamas, which has its international headquarters in the Syrian capital. As Israel has communicated repeatedly, if Syria was truly interested in a true peace, it would end its relationship with such groups.
One must also keep in mind that had the Lebanon war ended differently - say, with Hizb’allah’s demise at the hands of Israel - Syria would not be talking “peace,” but urging the international community to censure Israel, or worse.
The Arab world is only ready to talk because it perceives Israel has having been defeated, or at least held at bay, by a far inferior military force. It’s peace overtures must be seen in this light.
There is an underlying belief throughout the Arab world that Israel is finally weak enough to be defeated militarily. The only thing that remains is for the Arabs to get their pieces set in advantageous positions. Israel’s control of the dominating Golan Heights and the central hill regions of Judea and Samaria pose nearly insurmountable defensive hurdles.
If Israel can be strongarmed through negotiations to surrender these areas, and its military is still perceived as too weak even to crush Hizb’allah, it will be only a matter of time (and a very short matter of time at that) until the next pan-Arab effort to annihilate the Jewish state.
Their appetites are whetted. Will the world help to set the table?
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438 comments so far ↓
1 Charles Wesley // Sep 26, 2006 at 1:05 am
First of all I don’t think that GOD will allow Israel be wiped off the map or moved anywhere else. I wonder is this a U.N. ploy ( yes I said U.N.) to move for the return of the Golan Heights. I know that the sides are chosen and a majority is against Israel. Bush should stay out of it.
2 Nathan // Sep 26, 2006 at 2:05 am
Ha the Golan will never be returned. What you lose in war you lose, so boo hoo Syria. Of course this is a UN ploy, here is a body that created a Jewish state with the intention of having it destroyed by the Arab armies. Well that didn’t happen and the UN is stuck with Israel, its” bastard child” if you will. Why has Israel been condemed more than any other nation at the UN? Now the true evil ones are the Syrian government officals that pretend they want peace with Israel. What a joke that the world ate up like candy. I love how al-Mualem says that peace under Arab terms would be the only way. The only peace terms the Syrians want are Israeli bodies floating in the sea, not gonna happen Syria. And I am glad that President Bush has not chickened out like he did with Abbas and talk to Syria. The only “peace talks” Syria needs is a laser guided bomb up the you know what. Start the draft I am ready.
3 Charles Wesley // Sep 26, 2006 at 2:46 am
Old Alabama may have read the Bible where it tells of Damascus being in utter ruin and would like to keep that from happening just in case .
4 Charles Wesley // Sep 26, 2006 at 2:48 am
So much for proof reading. Old Alibaba.
5 Victor Passenheim // Sep 26, 2006 at 7:13 am
The world is waiting only so gladly to set the table. Get rid of Israel, the greatest obstacle to peace in the world, and it’ll be cool runnings the rest of the way.
That’s the way these numb nuts think.
I’m going to wave my Israeli flag as much as I can - just to get in their face about it.
6 AMorton // Sep 26, 2006 at 7:28 pm
Q. to A Morton
So you say there is not a prophecy about the regathering of Israel, or anything.
Answer
No. What is being said is that the only regathering the Bible spoke of in the O.T. was the one that followed the return from the Assyrian/Babylonian Captivity.
All OT regathering verses (excluding the Genesis/Exodus ones that spoke of the regathering from Egypt)….all other OT regathering verses prophesied forward to the regathering from Assyria/Babylon that occured 2500 years ago….before the birth of Christ.
The only Gathering mentioned in the N.T.; and the only future gathering in respect to our modern day, is the gathering of Jesus’ followers to Himself when He appears in Power and Glory at the 2nd Coming.
Q. to A Morton
you say 1948 isn’t prophecied in the bible of the rebirth of the nation of Israel.
Answer
Correct.
Nowhere does the Bible mention 1948, nor does the NT mention another re-gathering of Israel anywhere in its future.
Israel now, today, in the N.T. era isn’t the gathering point.
Jesus Christ and His Gospel Message that brings freedom and eternal inheritance, possession, and everlasting life is the only gathering point remaining.
Q. to A Morton
Well…neither was the year when our Lord was born. We know though, it was 2000 yrs ago. We know the date it happned.
The prophecy Isah 9 : 6
” behold unto us a child was born ….ect ” was the birth of the “son” given as a date or was it given as to thing to watch? I think those people then saw the birth and declared it was fulfillment of that prophecy.
Answer
We know it happened not because you said so…or because an historian said so.
We know it because the N.T. quoted Isaiah 9:6 and said it was fulfilled a the time of Jesus’ birth.
Q. to A Morton
in the same light Israel was born in one day, 1948 may 14 ,
Isaiah 66 : 8
” who has heard of such a thing? who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her children.
Answer
Your analogy fails, because it has no New Testament Support, unlike the Isaiah 9 birth prophesy.
Had the NT quoted Isaiah 66:8 and said it would occur in the future, 1948 years after Calvary or anything remotely similar; you would have a case to argue.
However, the NT makes no mention of a future rebuirth or regathering of Israel.
Q. to A Morton
(fact, israel was born in one day and satan did not like it because he sent his people , 7 arabic countries , against them the very next morning to continue the slaughter according to them,Hitler did not finish) Do you know this?
They won’t finish it and never will because God always strenghtened Israel.
Answer
In the OT, God strengthened Israel because they followed and trusted and were obedient to Him.
1948 showed no obedience to God….for that government rejected and dismissed Jesus Christ. By doing so, they show God not to be their leader. The 1948 battle of Israel/Arabs was no different in God’s eye than the 1815 battle of France/Spain at Waterloo.
Satan loves to war against anyone who will war. Any when neither party loves God and rejects Jesus….even the better, for Satan gains even more souls as prizes!
Q. to A Morton
have you ever read the intire book of Ezekiel? the first few chapters are about the rebellion you alluded to concerning Israel. the last chapters are about the restoration of the “whole house of Israel”.(a remnant from every tribe)
Answer
Yep….and that restoration is not talking about our future, it was talking about Ezekiel’s future when they would be returned from Assyrian/Babylonian Captivity.
A remnant from every tribe did return then, circa 500 BC.
Ezekiel found its fulfillment centuries and centuries ago.
Q. to A Morton
Does God proclaim mercy on Israel?
Answer
Sure he does….He proclaimed it the loudest when He sent them His Son.
Q. to A Morton
I know the many pasages with this message but are you willing to search it out. Why don’t you take out a concordence like Young’s or Strong’s and look all the passages about Mercy. Some where you will see God has mercy on ” them”. ( seems you are very hard on them, you should read
Gen 12 : 3)
You will find that God is a God of Mercy first and Judgement second.
Answer
And God’s mercy today to the Jew and to the Nation of Israel is not found in land, is not found in battles won, is not found in a star-of-david flag, or any other worldly thing.
God’s mercy today is only found in Jesus.
Without Jesus, there is no mercy.
Don’t preach 1948 to the Jews of today as being an act of God’s mercy….preach the following instead!
Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour”
Jude 1:21 “Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
Jude 1:1 to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you”
2 John 1:3 “Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.”
I Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”
7 Charles Wesley // Sep 27, 2006 at 2:10 am
A Morton ,
Ezekiel 37 tells of GOD restoring Israel to their land and says all the land that he gave to Jacob. Latter in the chapter he says (forever). Unless there is something I have missed and I could have, then Ezekiel 37 speaks of this time frame. Then to Russia comes into play in Ezekiel 38.
8 AMorton // Sep 27, 2006 at 3:00 am
Hi Charles,
How long is forever in your estimation. For example, circumcision was a command given that it would be preformed forever. Yet we find:
Romans 2:25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
If an uncircumcised man (Gentile) keeps the law will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
Interesting statement. How can someone who is not physically circumcised be “counted as circumcision”? Sounds spiritual. Paul then, in this same context says: he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter. Paul says it’s not your physical descendants that make someone a “Jew” at least in the sense that God looks at the matter (Rev 2:9), it’s the heart. Gentiles have one of those, so they can be equated as a Jew. Paul is repeating the idea of verse 26 again in verse 29.
The land certainly was promised forever, I will give you that. The physical land came with a condition. that condition has always been obiedience. Deut. 28 clearly points out this condition. However, in Christ the promise is now through Him. The land is the kingdom as given in depth in Hebrews. Forever it will be our possesion. It is not conditional upon us except by one means and acceptance and that is that we come to Christ Jesus. Since the Son of God made this all complete in Him God’s promises have been fulfilled in Him as well.
Its really rather simple to understand.
9 Charles Wesley // Sep 27, 2006 at 3:34 am
A.M. I perceive that you take issue with the gathering of Israel back into their land and the building of the temple at this time or ma-by in the future. The Jew’s are God’s chosen people forever. That’s a long time! It is an amazing thing that GOD would keep his word after the Jews failed him so many times, but he will. Kinda gives me hope that he will keep me as many times as I have disappointed him. I have a Jehovah’s witnness friend that wants to disinfranchise the Jewish people from the favor of GOD.
10 AMorton // Sep 27, 2006 at 3:38 am
I am not a JW. I just read my Bible and take it for what it says. If you and I do not agree I can live with that, but I have done my part.
Blessings my brother in Christ
11 Charles Wesley // Sep 27, 2006 at 4:00 am
No offence intended A.M. The radicals are staging for the events in Ezekiel 38 & 39 now. With the Jews being in Israel now and Russia aligned with the Muslims , the stage is set for the event aforementioned. The Temple has to be rebuilt and the daily sacrifice started . From what I understand the daily sacrifice can begin under a tent when the temple is started ,But at some point it will be taken away and 1260 days latter the Abomination of desolation will occur, 45 days latter Jesus returns .Daniel 12 verse11&12. Going to be intense!
12 AMorton // Sep 27, 2006 at 5:02 am
No offense taken. I know there is all sorts of views out there. I am not offended by any except those opinions that are taught as truth. I will let you decide on your own whether or not they are opinions or truth.
13 Charles Wesley // Sep 28, 2006 at 3:48 am
A.Morton what is your thoughts about Revelations chapter 7 and chapter 14 similarities ?
14 AMorton // Sep 28, 2006 at 4:07 am
Hey Charles, I want to answer your question, if I can, but I need you to be more specific.
15 Charles Wesley // Sep 28, 2006 at 4:50 am
Read both and look at their similarities starting with the 144000 common to both chapters.
My thoughts concerning both chapters are,
1. Chapter 14 is a detailed version of chapter. 7
2.the 144000 will spread the gospel
3. the Antichrist has come and gone
4. the harvest (rapture) happens mid-trib per Rev.14 verse 14
5. Rev 7&14 are consistent with Daniel chapter 11 & 12
16 Charles Wesley // Sep 28, 2006 at 5:12 am
Let me move you out of your reality. Where did these virgin Jewish men come from considering that they have no guile in their mouth. First fruits for sure. The (guile) makes me think that they died very young not to have an opinion. After all they will preach the gospel the way Jesus wants it , not the way the various denominations do it now. So did GOD have a job in mind for all those male children 2 or so years old and younger that Herod The Great had killed while trying to kill Jesus. I would like to know how many died at his hand.
Just something that came to mind.
17 AMorton // Sep 28, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Hello Charles,
I do appreciate your thoughts and your questions to me. I will certainly respond to you in a few days but I do not want to post it here in this limited space. Therefore I will give you a link to where I have posted my answer to you. I want my answer to be thorough so it will take a little time to type it out in between my other responsibilities.
18 Charles Wesley // Sep 29, 2006 at 2:48 am
Hello A Morton
I should have also included the last half of Rev. 6 with chpt.7 to compare to chapter. 14. I am sure there are other
parallel chapters within the same books such as in Daniel.
Talk latter
19 Victor Passenheim // Sep 30, 2006 at 4:28 am
To Charles and A Morton,
How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?
In other words, what point is there in discussing arbitrary details in Scripture when you can’t even discern the incredible and central work that God is currently doing through the regathering of His chosen people.
Shame, shame.
20 AMorton // Sep 30, 2006 at 6:27 am
O give me a break Vic! Do you think God has only helped out the Jews? God loves us all and will do good as He sees fit. Do you believe, for example, that the United States had devine help in its becoming an independent nation? Do you have problems with examples like this or is Israel the only possible blessed nation? There is nothing in the NT that says Israel will be favored above all nations. Where in the NT is it stated that God will regather the Jews? You won’t be able to find it because the concept is not there. Do your research before you blurt out your nonsense in the future.
21 Charles Wesley // Sep 30, 2006 at 11:09 pm
To Victor ,
The nation of Israel nor the Jews has a monopoly on God.
Christian’s have a better ideal of what God is doing in Israel than most Jews. We have an advantage that enables us to see an overall view of the situation ,because we are not as involved and much of the prophesy is related to Jesus and his return. Israel doesn’t know it yet, but they are going to be liberated from Russia by the Lord Jesus. If they need help he is the one to call on. O.T. Ezekiel 38 & 39.
We Christians have received Jesus that was prophesied from Abraham on. We know that the Jews were blinded to Jesus’s first appearance on earth so we do not hold them responsible for having contempt for the Christian faith. We are endeared to them because they are still God’s chosen people. The Old Testament is not out of date, in fact many prophesies are being fulfilled even today. God said in Ezekiel 37 that he would open their graves and breath his spirit into them and they would be with him ever more. God will gather all Jews into Israel.
22 AMorton // Sep 30, 2006 at 11:48 pm
Charles, you said “God will gather all Jews into Israel.” Are you certain of that? I mean, who really is a jew? Does anyone know? How about the people of the world who have converted to judism? How much of Abraham’s blood do they have. How much of Abraham’s blood does it take to be a Jew? What measure does God use for this?
John the Baptist said that God could make sons of Abraham from the rocks meaning it is not of the flesh that we are called sons of Abraham. Jesus was told by the Pharisees and Sadducees that Abraham was their rightful father, but Jesus then said if you are truly sons of Abraham, then why do you try to kill me.
No, it has nothing to do with whether one is a jew or not but rather our relationship to God through the Seed of Abraham, Jesus the Christ.
No, the jew will not be gathered to Israel. Yes some are there but 7 million are not, and those are just 7 million who think they may be Jews. What of the millions who have Jewish blood in them and do not know that they do? The people who God is calling are those like you and me - all believers on the Lord Jesus Christ. We have been called to the Holy land which is a spiritual place. it is a Holy place for a royal priesthood of people - US.
Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
23 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 1:00 am
To A. Morton
2nd Thessalonians chapter. 2 verse 4 tells of the False Prophet (antichrist) will sit in the temple of God .
1. The Temple of God will exist at that time in the future.
2. Only the Jews would have any interest in building it.
3. The two witnesses will be there . thus Temple/Jews Rev.11.
4.God has not cast out the Jews . He just not used them to propagate Christianity. Romans chapter. 11 verse 11—-36.
24 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 1:40 am
Who is the temple of God? Isn’t it the church? Who “falls away”? Isn’t it those who were of the church? Could it be anyone else in the context of 2 Tess 2:3? Doesn’t a falling away naturally indicate that Satan has entered in? The verse you have given nowhere says that a temple will be rebuilt. In fact if we were to take this literally, and it may well be, then we should also know that at the time of Paul writing this to the church at Thessolonica, that the temple was still standing. We also know that in 70AD, some 40 years after Jesus foretold of it destruction, the temple was certainly destroyed by the Roman armies. The Roman emperor certainly did set himself up over the temple as if he were God.
Charles, it seems to me that the burden of proof is on you to show us where it says that a third temple will be built. I know that there is a temple mount movement to rebuild the temple and it has in fact been attempted numerous time throughout history, but God has not said it will happen. I will go by what god says.
25 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 3:52 am
Jesus will be the last temple. But that will not be on this earth. On this earth at the end of this dispensation the (Temple of God ) a stone building will be built. It will be built on Mt. Morriah the only place it was permitted to be built. The Jews will be able to start the sacrifice when it starts. The Dome Of The Rock will have to come down as it covers the court yard where the sacrifices were made. All of these things are going to happen to fulfill Gods plan. The New Testament was not talking about the past in that chapter but the future about the coming of Christ and what to look for.
Ezekiel talks about the Russia coming against Israel and Jesus coming and destroying the occupying forces. That also tells you that the Jews are supposed to be there.
26 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 3:55 am
Where did the bible say the temple would not be rebuilt this time?
27 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 4:23 am
Charles, really! You mean to say this is the reason you believe that there will be a third temple because the Bible doesn’t speak against it? Well, the NT is full of examples showing why there won’t be a third temple. Do you believe God is going to nullify the sanctifying, atoning sacrifice of His Son and reinstate the sacrificial OT system? Does the NT point to more sacrifice or does it point to the Final one in Christ?
28 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 4:34 am
God’s plan was fulfilled at the cross.
Russia is never mentioned in the Bible.
Rev. Chapters 1 through the 1st part of chapter 20 are about AD70.
Ezekiel speaks of the time of the Babylonian destruction of jerusalem, the exile and the return from exile.
To help you out a little bit let me suggest that you listen to a series of lectures on the olivet discourse at my website. The link is http://www.undergodproductions.com/OlivetDiscourse.html and it will knock your socks off and give you all the Bible references you need.
29 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Stick to the bible you will be better off. Frankly you can find any interpretation you want on the computer because there is no one to edit information.
30 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Yes, I agree. But what do we have Bible teachers for if not to teach. I take it you are opposed to going to church, meaning you are not a regular attender of a church of God in your local area? I take it you have not been influenced by any teaching on any subject of the Bible? I take it you have received all knowledge of the Bible from your own reading of Scripture without any outside help? I take it you have never read the story of Phillip and the Ethiopian?
Fine…stay in you little box.
31 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 5:25 pm
in other words Charles, don’t be a hypocrite. If you have listened or read even one commentary of the Bible, you are guilty of the very thing you are charging me of. I hate this arrogant thing in people like you.
32 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 6:28 pm
You know, when I minister to Mormons, which is my personal ministry, I run into the same fence as I seem to be running into with you Charles. The Mormon does not want to hear or learn anything that may threaten their own world view. This also is what I find with Christian Zionists - who all happen to be Pre-trib holders or dispensationalists. Whenever their view is threatened by another believer who can show scripturally why the a-mil/preterist view is of Scripture (I am not a full preterist because I can show where the 2nd coming of Christ has yet to happen), I get this song and dance that if you only “Stick to the bible you will be better off.” as if we who read the Bible and hold some view other than yours are somehow inferior to you. Charles, by you holding this against me, you have in affect, shut and locked the door of opportunity that may be a calling to you from God to come to better understanding.
However, I will be around if you want to reopen that door.
Blessings
33 Charles Wesley // Oct 2, 2006 at 4:44 am
2 . I believe the harvest will be after the Antichrist is shown for who he really is - plus 45 days per Daniel 12. Rev.14 — 2nd Thess Rev.7
4.I believe that God has started bringing back the Jews to build that temple ( that is nothing to a Christian but a footnote
in the fulfillment of Gods prophesy concerning the END.
7 .I believe that Jesus is a Jew and he is the King of the Jews and will be my King. And the 144000 will witness to the Jews , all of them that were blinded so that the Gentile’s
could receive Jesus. He will open their graves and put his spirit into them and they will live again and he will save them.
This is said in Ezekiel 37. It has not happened yet. I suggest if you have a problem with that you should see the author.
8 . The only people that I know about that have a problem with the Jews are Muslims , Atheist and Jehovah’s Witnesses
9.I go to a Baptist church ,but all denominations except the JW’s agree on the very things I have espoused. Even the Turbin heads agree that the the geographical area known as Russia will come against Israel as the bible said. Thus the gathering.
I am saved by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ and await his return and will not be swayed by a commentary.
I guess Billy Graham , John Hagge ect. needs to check in with you because they must be wrong too!
May the Holy Spirit guide you . Peace and Good Will Brother
34 AMorton // Oct 2, 2006 at 5:15 am
I happen to belong to a baptist church as well but yet we disagree.
35 Victor Passenheim // Oct 2, 2006 at 10:39 am
AMorton,
I don’t know how much this will “help”, but here are just a few verses dealing with the promised ingathering of the Jews to the Promised Land by God:
Deuteronomy 29, 30
Psalm 106:47
Isaiah 11
Isaiah 13
Isaiah 27
Isaiah 34
Isaiah 40
Isaiah 43
Isaiah 49
Isaiah 56
Isaiah 60
Isaiah 62
Isaiah 66
Jeremiah 3
Jeremiah 23
Jeremiah 29:11
Jeremiah 31
Jeremiah 32
Ezekiel 11
Ezekiel 20
Ezekiel 28:25,26
Ezekiel 34
Ezekiel 36
Ezekiel 37
Ezekiel 38
Ezekiel 39:28,29
Joel 3
Micah 4
Zephaniah 2:10
Zechariah 12
Zechariah 14
Revelation 20
Notice the intimate, special, exclusive relationship the LORD will establish with His people. Notice how overarchingly central this is to His purposes and desires.
It is amazing to me that you could have missed out on this, one of the central messages in Scripture. I didn’t even go into the NT, but the spirit and attitude with regards to Israel is one and the same with that of the OT.
Charles is right, stick to the Bible.
36 Victor Passenheim // Oct 2, 2006 at 1:07 pm
To Charles,
Clearly the nation of Israel does not have a monopoly on God. God is the only one with a monopoly - over all that He has created.
Granted, Christians should have a good idea about what God is doing in Israel, but if they do they certainly don’t behave like it. Or they are purposefully trying to become a stumbling block to the Jewish people. On the flipside, you should speak to some religious Jews sometime. You might be surprised at just how well they can discern the times.
The “Christian” President, George Bush, has done a splendid job of dividing up the Promised Land which God admonished never to do. Christian organizations have done very little to show their support for Israel, and in fact, several denominations (Anglicans, Presbyterians) are divesting from Israel.
With friends like that, who needs enemies. And if you’re an enemy to God’s people, how do you think God takes that?
To be sure, the Church’s record is not so great these days, but it has been even worse historically. I remember you mentioning that “…we do not hold them responsible for having contempt for the Christian faith. We are endeared to them because they are still God’s chosen people.”
This a strange comment and, also, out of touch with the Spirit of God.
First, more than Islam, the Church has a terrible and bloody record with regards to the Jews.
Second, we are not endeared to them because “they are still God’s chosen people”, but rather because GOD is ‘endeared’.
More tender pronunciations of God’s love cannot be found anywhere in Scripture than what He expresses towards His chosen people, Israel. And there are many.
Finally, it should be said that despite our treacherous record historically, God has still seen fit to choose a remnant among Gentile believers that He has kept faithful to Himself.
The “Church” fancies itself too much. Yes, Israel has a dismal record with God, but the Church somehow fails to see how terribly poor its record has been. If not for the grace of God…
Also, I wanted to comment on your statement
“4.I believe that God has started bringing back the Jews to build that temple ( that is nothing to a Christian but a footnote
in the fulfillment of Gods prophesy concerning the END. “
…compare that with Romans 11:11,12. (I think Paul has a different take). Anything in Romans 11.
Also, the following “footnotes” seem to have been pretty important, because God made many of them throughout Scripture and some deal directly with the Church.
Quoting from http://www.gotquestions.org/end-times-Israel.html, the following verses deal with Israel and the end times:
There will be a mass return of Jews to the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 30:3; Isaiah 43:6; Ezekiel 34:11-13; 36:24; 37:1-14).
The antichrist will make a 7-year covenant of “peace” with Israel (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 9:27).
The Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 11:1).
The antichrist will break his covenant with Israel. Worldwide persecution of Israel will result (Daniel 9:27; 12:1, 11; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 24:15, 21; Revelation 12:13). Israel will be invaded (Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
Israel will finally recognize Jesus as the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10). Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered (Jeremiah 33:8; Ezekiel 11:17; Romans 11:26).
All of this makes me wonder how many “footnotes” the Church is basically overlooking.
37 AMorton // Oct 2, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Vic, I could refute your claim on every one of your scripture proofs. Would it help you to understand if I did? I don’t think so.
38 CALLIE // Oct 2, 2006 at 5:08 pm
But Victor, you do not speak for God. And how can you say the Christians have not done enough for the Jews? I’ve seen plenty that the Christians have done for the Jews and Israel. From what I understand there isn’t supposed to be another Temple built. Where is this Temple suppose to be built? In place of the aqsa mosgue or somewhere else in Jerusalem? I don’t understand this at all.
And AMorton, could you please refute some of Vic’s claims to some of his scriptures (or all of them, if you have the time) because for my own personal information, I would like to understand better. Thank you.
Charles, I don’t think it is in your best interest to be so defensive with AMorton. We can all learn from somebody. A closed door and a closed mind will not further us to peace and a benevolent place in God’s World, although God is very generous and forgiving.
Please, AMorton, I would like to hear the refutations.
39 CALLIE // Oct 2, 2006 at 5:18 pm
How does the OT and the NT confirm each other?
How can one say the the Church has a bloody history with the Jews, when after all, it was the Jews who murdered Jesus Christ? This bears more weight to me, I believe.
I could never understand how Jesus could ever be a Jew if He was trying to teach Jews not to transgress - to change their evil ways as he saw it, therefore how could he himself be Jewish? However, if someone could explain this to me, I’m willing to listen.
Peace.
40 AMorton // Oct 2, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Callie, I really do appreciate you coming to stand along side me. It can be a lonely world out there. I will, for your benefit refute the given scriptures as evidence by Victor. I am busy, no doubt, but I will earnestly work on it this week.
41 Charles Wesley // Oct 2, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Victor I Have to admit , I totally agree with you. Yes President Bush did blunder concerning Israel. Yes there have been some Christians that blame the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus. Although I am not aware of any personally . But I disagree with you about Christians being a stumbling block to the Jews. If the Christians didn’t try to keep people in power that will back Israel you might be with out a friend and have a whole lot of enemies. Please surprise me with the Jewish perspective of the events and times . I would love to know what they see. I am sure that most Christians would love to know. Is there a site where this is presented. As far as the foot note statement I was saying that only the Jews that still keep the Law Of Moses will be interested in rebuilding the Temple of God. The Christians believe in the grace of God through Jesus Christ and there is no other offering for sin. Yes we are very interested in the Temple construction primarily for the confirmation of prophesy being fulfilled. As for your quotes we are very aware of those indisputable truths.
Call the dogs off–believe it or not we are on the same side.
Victor do you live in Israel?
42 Charles Wesley // Oct 2, 2006 at 11:53 pm
Callie ,
The OT back in Genesis told of a promise that God made to Abraham at Mt. Morriah when God found that he would give his only son as a sacrifice , as God ask him to do. Also the OT tells of this promise called Jesus The new testament confirms this with the coming of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection. Prophets in the old testament tell of events that the NT expound on and are now and never before possible. Jesus came from the lineage of Jesse ,and his mother was a Jew.
Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of the Old Testament and did not make it outdated. In-fact the Old Testament prophesy is coming true today. The Bible is the word of God and he didn’t make a mistake in the OT and decide to change it with a reissue called the NT. They are one testament with two dispensations. The last being the dispensation of Grace through Jesus Christ.
43 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 2:54 am
Charles,
I live in Florida and I am a Christian, not a Jew.
So you say President Bush did a “blunder” concerning Israel. I would say that no President in American history could have done anything worse for his nation than the curse that George Bush has brought on us.
To divide God’s promised land and to give part of it to a terrorist entity with no rightful claim to that land, an entity whose aim is to annihilate Israel and which plots murder on a daily basis. The “Roadmap” solution proposed by President Bush will leave Israel with indefensible borders. This is a fact. And what does Israel, or for that matter, the world get for this. More terrorism. You call this a “blunder”. I call it treason.
What does Scripture have to say about this?
What has the Church done about this? Where is the condemnation and protest from the Christian world?
You should know that while America has been the closest thing to a friend that Israel has had, historically, America has also been there at every point in history to pull Israel back from outright victory over its implacable enemies.
So, if you would like to know what Jews think about the end times, I suggest the following website:
www.arutzsheva.com (also israelnationalnews.com)
Any one their radio shows in English are excellent. They are downloadable or you can tune in live.
I personally like to listen to the Tovia Singer show.
Check out the following show:
http://www.israelnationalradio.com/Asx/tovias-th-1.asx
Many other goodies here. But I would encourage you to call in live and ask questions. It’s easy to get through and they love the calls.
And finally, as far as the Christian community being a stumbling block to Israel (if what I’ve said so far has raised some eyebrows - “friends” don’t treat others this way), do a search on:
Anglican church divests from Israel
and
Presbyterians divest from Israel
Finally, you can do a search on the persecution of the Jews by both the Catholic Church and Protestants.
Not a pretty picture.
So we agree, but not really.
44 AMorton // Oct 3, 2006 at 3:44 am
Callie, here is a link with the first installment of responses to the text proofs Victor has given. Feel free to check back throughout the next week or two.
http://www.undergodproductions.com/ToVictor.html
45 Charles Wesley // Oct 3, 2006 at 3:48 am
Victor,
I didn’t vote for Bush . I don’t like Bush , but I did like him giving Israel as much time as he could. If Israel were to have been too victorious this last time Syria or Iran may have entered the war. Iran was making trial runs I believe to come through the Turkish airspace and down to Israel with fully loaded fighter bombers. I am thinking to avoid US fighters.
This is a possibility I thought of when I heard that Israel contacted Turkey to inform them that Iranian jets were approaching their airspace. Also I believe Israel wanted to stop where they were this time.
As for those churches ,we don’t need them . The Baptist churches are for Israel all the way ,but you know that.
I also live in Florida
God’s will be done
46 CALLIE // Oct 3, 2006 at 4:31 am
Thank you, AMorton, I will definitely check out the site. And I will check back from time to time.
Victor, what Charles says is quite right about Bush. Bush has helped the Jews and Israel, considerably. It is his administration that sits in the UN Council that votes vetoes in favour of Israel. No country has been so generous to the Jews and Israel, other than the United States of America and you should know this. If it hadn’t been for us Christians and I will most definitely include the Catholics and the Protestants - do not forget, John F. Kennedy was a Catholic and he made a splendid and dynamic speech about Israel and how it would be the USA’s priority to fight for and defend Israel. I can most assuredly copy paste that speech for you if you like, Victor.
As I was saying, if it hadn’t been for the Christian people, and I will include the Prostestants and Catholics, the Jews would not be where they are today and there would be no Israel today. The Jews need the Christians - they cannot get far without Christians. We are over 2 billion strong. It is foolish for any criticisms to leak out against Christians.
I would like to know what you mean by persecutions done by the Catholic Church towards Jews, Victor. I would like for you to give me evidence of this. Direct me to a link, if you must.
As for the present time, I haven’t seen any persecutions of Jews by Christians in the past 60 years. You will only anger the Christian folk with talk like this.
As for the Presbyterians, c’mon. They hardly have any power. What do you hope to gain by showing your anger against all Christians by pointing out a handful of Presbyterians?
Do not forget what Bush has done for the Christian Right and the Christian Right has done for Bush. These two are great powers for Israel! It saddens me that you do not acknowledge this. The Christian Right has a place in the White House and the White House always welcomes them.
The Christian Right and many other Christians work very hard and have a lot of faith in our Country and so it goes with Israel.
47 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 4:47 am
You gotta love the insanity of it all.
If any other nation were being bombarded by a terrorist group to the extent that Israel was, there wouldn’t be an acceptable “timetable” during which the attacked nation would be allowed to respond.
How hypocritical. To be sure Israeli PM Olmert certainly played a good in hand in having Israel fail.
If the same situation were happening to us, we would demand the destruction of the terrorist group and we would not tolerate outside criticism to the way we handled this crisis.
But hey, no skin of our backs. And after all, their our allies! Jewish blood is cheap. Why be inconvenienced.
Truth, justice, and the American way triumph again!
The history books will show you that when Israel is given free reign (and their leaders don’t get in the way) they have gone on to soundly defeat their enemies, often greatly outnumbered. So I’m not afraid of Iran and Syria getting involved in the conflict (weren’t they involved anyways - where do you think all of the ammunition, training came from).
48 CALLIE // Oct 3, 2006 at 4:51 am
Another thing Victor,
I really do not believe that Bush will divide the Holy Land. If he has said this, and I never heard anything like this - do not forget: Bush has mentioning many times about creating peace in Israel and its Territories. But has he really done so? No. He stalls. And he has always stalled on such an issue. I feel that this is one of Bush’s strategies, don’t you think?
Well thank you, Charles for the information, and I will ponder it. But if Jesus was a Jew, shouldn’t we then all be Jews instead of Christian?
I appreciate you bringing some of the likenesses of the OT and the NT. But when will this Temple be built? Is there any mention and the circumstances surrounding this situation? Does the OT or the NT agree on this new Temple, specifically? If it’s easy for you to direct me to a link, that will be fine.
Again, Victor, I don’t see the Christians becoming a stumbling block in the way of the building and completion of the Holy Land. Look at the Christain politicians in the UK and the USA. Look at the work of Dennis Prager.
I think your words are too harsh. I agree with Charles. Bush gave Israel plenty of his time, and plenty of support. Don’t forget. Bush has shut out talks with Iran and Syria time and time again, especially recently. Let’s say that Bush does have talks with these countries: Do you really think he’ll listen to them? I don’t think so. Bush will stall again, it’s his strategy.
Thank you, again AMorton I will look into the link.
Blessings and Peace to all.
49 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 6:09 am
Callie,
Dividing the land - it’s called the Road Map.
Stalling? Why stall? Why not show some backbone, any kind of backbone and say: “I will not cede land to a nation which has broken every “peace” agreement with Israel and has shown and said in no uncertain terms, time and again, that they only want to destroy Israel”
You don’t “stall” in the face of tyranny. You defeat it.
You don’t have to be a “Christian Zionist” to show the most minimal of integrity and morality.
Furthermore, how can one even broker a deal with terrorists? That’s what Hamas and Fatah are, and the “beautiful” Palestinians voted them into office.
Callie, you’ve got a lot of thinking to do. I would highly recommend you check out the radio talk shows at israelnationalnews.com
They take live calls gladly. Ask them questions. I guarantee that you’ll get information here that you just won’t find anywhere else.
In fact, ask Ryan Jones (the blog author) what he thinks. You might be surprised.
50 Todd // Oct 3, 2006 at 7:24 am
I just finished reading this dialogue and find it fascinating! I try to avoid getting drawn into these seemingly endless online debates (e.g. pre/post trib rapture, etc.), but I’m going to make an exception by throwing in some food for thought.
First, I’ll let you know up front what my perspective is, but will also point out that I do my best to keep an open mind to opposing interpretations of scripture. Historically, I’ve been taught and held the pre-trib rapture belief. Recently, I find myself moving toward the belief of a mid-trib/pre-wrath rapture. Not to say that this is a debate about that subject, but I bring it up only to make this point…
Isn’t much of this debate really irrelevant in the eternal scheme of things? If we all hold true to our Lord’s greatest commands - to love one another and keep doing His work until His return, isn’t that all that really matters? Whether I’m swept away, protected or martyred before, during, or after the great tribulation, the result is the same. I’ll be with my Heavenly Father forever. Whether or not a temple is going to be rebuilt, just doesn’t matter to me. Whether or not the current gathering of Jews in the mideast is prophecied or not, isn’t gong to make me, or I dare say anyone who truly has Christ in their heart stumble. The most important thing for all of us, Jews, Israelites, and Christians to remember is that - we know how the story ends…. we feast with Him forever.
I think many of us (and I include myself) are going to be surprised how the details of the story unfold as we get close to that final result. I think we’d all agree it’s all at our doorstep and many of us will witness it ourselves.
Stepping back from this and other online escatology debates I’ve seen, I wonder why God chose to leave just enough ambiguity in His Word for so many of us to hold our truths to be so absolute, and yet so opposing to fellow believers, who love the very same Creator just as much. Oftentimes, both sides quote the very same scripture to argue their point! It reminds me of our U.S. Cival War, when both North and South were absolutely convinced God was on their side. Rhetorically, I ask how all the debate serves His purpose? Someday soon, I believe we’ll find out. If nothing else, I guess it draws us into more scripture study.
Now to shift gears and throw out some thinking/research food for you online theologians. You may have noticed in a previous paragragh, I distiquished between Jew and Israelite. Remember that hundreds of years before Christ was on this earth, the 10 northern tribes of Israel had been destroyed and dispersed by the Assyrians? Apparently, all that was left of Abraham’s seed in the promised land was the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and a remnant of the Levites. The reason I bring this up is because of the original text of this debate revolved around the 1948 restoration of the state of Israel.
Whether prophecied or not, I think we’d all agree it is not currently a complete nation in its borders, in its people or in its spirit. The eternal covenant given to Abraham is not complete with this state as it exists today. Whether or not you believe the temple must be rebuilt, we still have the 10 “lost tribes” to deal with. Of course, WE don’t have to deal with it, God does - and will, to keep His covenant. Only the returning Christ can bring it back to completeness.
I bring all this up because I recently finished a fascinating ebook found at http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/US/
I’m still absorbing its content, so I don’t promote it as absolute truth, but certainly worth a read for anyone with an open mind to what God wants to reveal to us. It is backed by a lot of scripture and documented history. I encourage all of you to give it a read and would enjoy reading your thoughts/comments.
One more point - question I guess for A. Morton. Something I struggle with as I read your interpretation of scripture that maybe you can clarify. Your mention of most prophecy already taking place, assumes there is no duality in what was written, would that be a fair statement? I’ve always been taught that many (not all) OT, and NT prophecies have both near and distant relevance. Much biblical and post-biblical history seems to bear witness to this. The most prominent example, being the dual coming of the Messiah Himself… fulfilled in the past, and to be fulfilled again in the future. This is one of the reasons the Jews to this day have stumbled on Him. Your thoughts?
May God richly bless you all!
Todd
51 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 8:31 am
Todd, I agree with you for the most part, but my point is that it does matter where you stand. Today, in particular, anti-Semitism is increasing world wide. Did you know that recently (within the last year) there was a survey in Europe which asked which country in the world is the greatest obstacle to peace? Respondents answered that the greatest obstacle to peace in the world was Israel.
Not Saudi Arabia, not Iran, not North Korea. Israel.
If your heart is for Zion, as it should be if you’re a Christian (pray for the peace of Jerusalem…), and if you see how the whole world coddles terrorists, defers to the “religion of peace” Islam, and castigates Israel at every turn even while her citizens are being indiscriminately murdered and maimed, then the suffering of the Jewish nation should matter to you.
I believe the future of the Church and the Jewish people is intertwined. I look on my Jewish friends who love Israel as not just friends, but as brothers and sisters. So this “divorced” mentality is just not in line.
I can see the hand of God at work there in a central way that is for the good and welfare of the rest of the world, and to fulfill His purposes on the earth.
Israel is central to God’s heart and desires. He is zealous for her. It should be central to us and drive our zeal, as well. They are key and they are family - God’s family, and that means a whole lot to me.
52 AMorton // Oct 3, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Hi Todd,
You said:
“One more point - question I guess for A. Morton. Something I struggle with as I read your interpretation of scripture that maybe you can clarify. Your mention of most prophecy already taking place, assumes there is no duality in what was written, would that be a fair statement? I’ve always been taught that many (not all) OT, and NT prophecies have both near and distant relevance. Much biblical and post-biblical history seems to bear witness to this. The most prominent example, being the dual coming of the Messiah Himself… fulfilled in the past, and to be fulfilled again in the future. This is one of the reasons the Jews to this day have stumbled on Him. Your thoughts?”
No need to assume anything within my comments. I state a paticular type of reasoning based on what the Bible teaches in whole. I certainly am not infalliable so I do know I may be mistaken on what I think but where it appears obvious to me then this is what I base my comments on. I do believe there are several cases of dual fulfillments but I do not want to go beyond what can be substantiated, whether proven by history or proven specifically in the Bible, or both. We also have to be careful with translations and apparent bias. NIV is notorious for this. I love little nuggets of the revealing nature of God. One such example is the story where Jesus is selection His disciples. He comes to Nathanael and says in
John 1:51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
Where else do we find in the Bible this happening where the angels of God are ascending and descending? The story of Jacob’s dream and angels ascending and descending on a ladder. Is it possible that this was a depiction of what Jesus verified centuries latter? This has been just one example. Since the Bible harmonizes with itself I find this to be totally probable. These types of things are waiting to be found if one studies thourouly.
As I proceed with http://www.undergodproductions.com/ToVictor.html you will be able to read even more examples like this. However when one begins to read into something that is not there and then build a whole different theology apart from what is intended, gain many followers to that theology, preach it from pulpits, write books on it, watch it on TBN, then this is how we get to movements as Zionism, Pre-tribulation rapture, third temple building, Kingdom of God is future, Christ sitting literally on the throne of David for a literal 1000 years, and so on.
53 CALLIE // Oct 3, 2006 at 6:20 pm
This is what AMorton says:
“However when one begins to read into something that is not there and then build a whole different theology apart from what is intended, gain many followers to that theology, preach it from pulpits, write books on it, watch it on TBN, then this is how we get to movements as Zionism, Pre-tribulation rapture, third temple building, Kingdom of God is future, Christ sitting literally on the throne of David for a literal 1000 years, and so on.”
Now what AMorton says above does seem to make quite a bit of sense. I believe we shouldn’t try to read into “what isn’t there”.
Victor, I believe that you are being a bit on the dramatic side. How do you know that there aren’t more people on the side of Israel as opposed? You are just quoting a survey of those showing negativity, but these people are not the whole world.
My God, Victor, look what the USA and Great Britain and CANADA did for Israel in July! They stood firm with Israel against Lebanon! How much proof do you need?
Another note, Victor. Saudi Arabia is hardly caring of the Arab nations around it? Look at Sudan! What did it do for Lebanon? NOTHING. Just talk. Do you not see the strategy?
Victor, when I say that Bush was stalling, I meant this as a positive for Israel, not a negative. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
I do pray for the Peace in Jerusalem, believe me. But I do not see the coddling of terrorists. Again, you are being over dramatic. Doesn’t Israel have the Hamas politician in their jails. Again Victor, something was done about them and still you are crying. Indeed something has to be done about terrorism and terrorists, but how do you know something isn’t being done? The USA, Canada, UK are doing what they can and I have seen this.
54 AMorton // Oct 3, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Victor, I want to add another comment to your dual fulfillment question. As I have said, dual fulfillment is not uncommon in the Bible. The caveot is however that all of it has been completed in Christ Jesus. There is no other fulfillment left to accomplish. Now having said this I can hear your thoughts and one of them would be “Has Jesus yet returned a 2nd time? the Bible says no. That is yet to be fulfilled. Has Jesus loosed Satan for the little season and then cast into the firey pit? No that has not yet happened. Are we living in the time after the return of Christ? No, obviously that has not occurred. So there you have it in a nutshell. All but the last few mentions have happened. No seven year tribulation (or at least the Bible doesn’t speak of it. No Third Temple, or at least the Bible doesn’t speak of it. No regathering of physical Israel in the last days, or at least the bible does not speak of it. I could go on.
55 Charles Wesley // Oct 4, 2006 at 2:41 am
Welcome Todd,
The Temple being built the last time. 2nd Thessalonians Chapter. 2 verse4 specifically explains that the false prophet (Antichrist) will sit in the Temple of God and show himself as God. Thus the temple gets there some how! It has not existed for 1936 years . This happens before the return of Jesus. Daniel tells of this in a less descriptive way in chapter 11 verse 31. Check out chapter. 12 verses11 thru- 13.56 the Jews
are going to build the Temple you can bank on that. The Dome of the Rock will come down when God is ready and the construction will begin. When the antichrist sets in the Temple as he is (God ) his true identity will be revealed and not before. Daniel 12 verses 11 thru 13 tells of a period of time of 45 days before the return of Christ . This is backed up by Revelations chpt.14 .
JESUS is a Jew. Matthew chapter 1 verse 1
And yes we Christians are grafted into the vine John 15 and Romans 11 verses 1 thru. 27. This message also confirms the Jews are Gods chosen people forever. He will not forsake them nor Jesus forsake us.
The gathering is presently taking place against all UN odds.
A M Jesus accomplished it all. He fulfilled the prophesy and will of God that brought the Grace and Mercy through the blood sacrifice of the Son of God and there is no other offering for sin. I believe he will do what God wills .
If we try to use science or a lawyer to decipher the Bible we can not receive the message intended. Read Mark 4 verses 11 thru.12 and the parable of the sower
56 Nathan // Oct 4, 2006 at 2:47 am
The President of Iran is the Anitchrist.
57 Charles Wesley // Oct 4, 2006 at 3:10 am
I have considered that ,But the book of Daniel chapter 11 verse 37 makes me think he will be of Jewish ancestry . In a documentary about the Vatican the indication was that one of the future Popes could be the Antichrist. There is a Jewish cardinal, who knows?
Check out the site (Dajjal) the Islamic address this same thought.
58 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 4, 2006 at 4:05 am
If you wish, then I say with reserve: Islamic “brutality” is - say 1000 years old? Fine. Vatican Lead Brutality is 2 millennia old from the Inquisition to the Protestant Cleansing to the Crusades and finally to the Holocaust, Sack of Constantinople (The Byzantine one), Real Estate business selling plots of land in heaven (yeah right!), slavery – and more.
You know what, it hasn’t stopped.
In the name of God they speak, in the name of God, may they all SHUT up. If Mohammed conquered with the sword, and his followers followed him, they are less hypocrites than the masters of the Vatican, whose Jesus called for love and Mercy, and his weapon was multiplying bread and fish and raising the dead. They shed blood and hatred in his name.
How do they answer to that?
Shame.
59 AMorton // Oct 4, 2006 at 5:24 am
Hey Charles,
The Discussion of Romans 9, 10 and 11 is simply this:
Its one consistant discussion. Yes, there are promises that Israel will be saved. Those promises are found in the Old Testament. The fact that most Jews are not saved does not give a lie to those promises. Those promises have come true none the less, but they have come true to the Israel that God had in mind. Which means the remnant of Jews who were in fact believers, as well as Gentiles who were believers, who were added in with them, and this new entity made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles is nothing other than the blend of what the remnant of Israel was in the Old Testament. The only difference is that there are now more Gentiles then Jews, while back in the Old Testament there were more Jews then Gentiles who were the faithful remnant. But still the same - that is - one constant ecklesia(sp), Israel of God, the ones to whom the promises apply.
Now, did Paul believe this? You bet he did.
Look at 2 Cor 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
And Galatians 3:29
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Paul clearly says this as well in Romans 11. He says:
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Paul is saying here that he is proof that God has not cast away His people, the ones whom He forknew. The ones whom He forknew are not all Israel for just as Paul said: “Not all Israel is of Israel.” Meaning on the remnant is. And the remnant are all believing people. We have been included in on that if you are obiedient to Christ.
What conclusion must be drawn by this. The conclusion is only one thing. If a Jew is not in Christ that Jew is no better off than the pagan. He is lost in his sins.
You guys are so hung up on the Jew today but God says they are lost if outside of Christ. They need a Redeemer and the Redeemer is only Christ Jesus. Stop lifting to sonship the lost and preach the Gospel to them instead.
60 Charles Wesley // Oct 4, 2006 at 11:58 pm
A Morton,
Do you realize that your objections to bible prophesy is centered on the denial of the covenant made by God with the Jews (Romans 11 verse 27 ,28, TWENTY NINE ,30 and on–
The Regathering of the Jews, the rebuilding of the temple the thousand year rein, the Jews being Gods chosen people.
You need to read carefully the Bible by itself. It needs no clarification ,I believe that the GOD that created this world knew what he was doing when he created the Bible also.
Surely all of the bible scholars that have studied their whole life in all the world can’t have miss interpreted those items.
There is only a small percentage of people that subscribe to those beliefs . If you read Ezekiel 37 as well then you will see that God will forgive their sins back to the time when Jesus was rejected ,and yes Jews can retrace their ancestry back to Abraham as well as those in Christ.
There are a lot of true Jews all over the world yet to be repatriated .
61 Charles Wesley // Oct 5, 2006 at 12:25 am
Christian’s are grafted into the Jewish ancestry to Abraham.
Going to church , back latter.
62 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 2:05 am
A Morton,
Do you realize that your objections to bible prophesy is centered on the denial of the covenant made by God with the Jews (Romans 11 verse 27 ,28, TWENTY NINE ,30 and on–
I would point to these verses to show that the “blinded” jews were blinded because they were not part of the remant of God in the first place. They demonstrated this by thier rejection of the Messiah.
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Jesus is that stumbling stone.
1 Corinthians 1:23
…but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles
And Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul here says the Jews have not been rejected until some future times of the Gentiles is complete. Instead Paul says no, the Jews are not rejected. This would have been a great place for Paul to say something like “Sure, the Jews are rejected now, but wait, in the future they won’t be”. Instead He points to Himself as proof!
Romans 11 goes on to give the example of how a “remant” was chosen, just as in the past. And then OT examples are quoted. One of them says:
“And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Interesting that it gives the reason why these seven thousand were kept. They were not idolators! They had not given up on the true God and gone to worship false gods.
So I would say the same thing happend to the Jews at that time. Those who turned or were turned from God also rejected the Messiah. God hardened/blinded them because they were not part of the remnant. They were not faithful Jews in the first place.
63 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 2:14 am
The Regathering of the Jews, the rebuilding of the temple the thousand year rein, the Jews being Gods chosen people.
You need to read carefully the Bible by itself. It needs no clarification ,I believe that the GOD that created this world knew what he was doing when he created the Bible also.
Charles, maybe you will show me where it is foretold that a third temple will be built, that outside of Chris the Jews are the choosen? This would be very helpful for our discussion. I mean I can geralize just as easily as the next guy, but I have not done so. I have provide Scripture to prove itself. Do you not agree that we should let Scripture interpret Scripture?
As far as Scolars. Do you have any paticular ones I should follow after? Hal Lindsey, Tommy Ice? Which infallible Scholar should I follow? Nevermind. I will stay with Christ and His disciples. I believe thaty have the interpretation just right.
Christian’s are grafted into the Jewish ancestry to Abraham.
Going to church , back latter.
Charles, again you have missed it. The church is grafted to the vine, the vine is Christ. How could you have missed that? “I am the vine, you are the branches” . Sound familiar to you, Charles.
I wish you were in my classroom, I would love showing you these things in more depth.
64 Charles Wesley // Oct 5, 2006 at 3:06 am
A.Morton
The Antichrist sits in the temple as he is God (2nd. Thess. 2 verse 4 ) remember the Abomination that maketh desolate in Daniel ,Matthew. How does it get there it does not exist now?
My bible does not say the word church, it said;ye ,you ,he ,to be sure he is personally addressing the reader in John 15.
What book are you reading?
65 Charles Wesley // Oct 5, 2006 at 3:23 am
It has been real. So long.
66 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 3:28 am
I find hurling insults unbecoming Charles. Have I ever accused you of not reading you Bible or not reading the same book as I have. Be nice now.
Let me make it plain to you. I am a partial preterist(actually we all are because preteist simply means believing that some prophecy has been fulfilled. Its just that we differ on how much). I believe the Bible teaches this. Matthew, Mark and Luke all confirm that the times described by Jesus are the days that took place only 40 years after the time of His asscension. The temple was still in existance at the time of Paul’s writings and was written for the readers of his day. Howerver, as I have already said in another posting here, which I think you must not have read, if it is for a future time the Bible makes it very clear that we are the temple of God. God dwells in us because we have accepted Christ as our Saviour. What do you think could possibly make God dwell in a temple built of stone and mortar? The temple of the OT was a shadow of the better temple. Do you agree? Once the substance of the shadow has come than the shadow becomes obsolete. This is the simple truth. If you want to go over Daniel in a verse by verse discussion or any book chapter and verse I am more than happy to do so, but be prepared to back up any of your claims with Scripture. As it stands today, you have failed to do this. Unless you take me up on an indepth study I would say our discussion is over.
67 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 5, 2006 at 6:01 am
Based on the CURSES the CREATOR places on the disobedient and rebellious in Dueteronomy 27:15-26 the ONLY way to see this as a ‘blessing’ is to IGNORE THE TRUTH.
what the Torah says:
Whoever has a carved or metal statue [or perhaps maybe a bomb or DU tipped missile would qualify ], anything disgusting to the LORD that was made by a craftsman, and sets it up in secret will be CURSED.
Whoever MOVES HIS NEIGHBOR’S BOUNDARIES WILL BE CURSED.
Whoever deprives foreigners, orphans, or widows of justice will be CURSED.
68 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 5, 2006 at 6:15 am
“The Zionists are NOT Jews according to RACE. Rather, they are the DESCENDANTS of a HOARD OF PAGANS who pressed into Russia in the first century of our era and in due time became PROSELYTES of Judaism.
In 692 A.D., they formed the Khazar Kingdom. In 955 A.D., Russia conquered them. They are neither JEWS BY RACE , nor are the GENUINELY JEWISH IN RELIGION .
They PASS THEMSELVES OFF AS JEWS , AND PRETEND that they are descendants of ISRAEL , and therefore, have RIGHT TO PALESTINE as their homeland, but they are FALSE IN THEIR CLAIMS AND ARE IRRELIGIOUS in their living.
The ORTHODOX Jews who have long been settled in Hebron, Jerusalem, Tiberias, and Safed, DO NOT WELCOME THEM to the Holy Land. Orthodox and Reformed Jews alike DISCLAIM ALL SYMPATHY WITH THEM, and DISOWN THEM .”
69 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Post 68 is true
70 CALLIE // Oct 5, 2006 at 4:29 pm
I have read some of your items AMorton. I also listened a bit to an audio on your website. Regarding post 68. Quite strong. But it does sound true. This is something I never heard before.
Charles, you have to admit. AMorton makes good sense.
I think Charles may have left us in an angry huff.
I am going to go back to my reading of your link and try to finish the Audio from your website, AMorton.
I hope you don’t mind, but I will put your website into my favourites. It’s time to start seeing and learning again, or maybe for the first time.
Peace to All.
71 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Callie, I have much you could use then. I will put a link on the website so that you can read more enlightening aspects of God’s Word. You may agree with most and not others and that is okay, but please feel free to read. I will label the link in the menu column and call it “More Articles”
Be watching and be prepared to be blessed.
http://undergodproductions.com
72 Victor Passenheim // Oct 5, 2006 at 9:59 pm
To Callie and AMorton,
Callie - read the Bible for yourself and allow it’s truth to speak to you.
AMorton - stop twisting the Scripture to fit your anti-Israel views. You’ll see a regathering of Israel and then you’ll have to swallow all the baloney you’ve been spewing.
73 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 11:40 pm
Yeah Victor, I have heard that all before and it was when I was in bondage to the Christian Zionist View. However, when ever I ask those still in that bondage where the NT speaks of a regathering of ethnic Jews then they all come up empty handed. Would you like to give it a try?
74 Victor Passenheim // Oct 6, 2006 at 1:28 am
No AMorton, the NT alone does not constitute the totality of Scripture, but you’re making a blatant denial of what a great deal of Scripture is VERY clear on.
75 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 2:12 am
Ok Vic, give me a such as and we can discuss it.
76 Joyce // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:06 am
Here are some verses I found to tell of prophecies to come.
Magog’s invasion of Israel is specifically stated as being in the latter days (Ezekiel chapter 38 verse16).
Victory over Magog (Ezekiel chapter 39 verse 6).
Regathering of Jews(Ezekiel chapter 39 verse 27).
Plans for a new Temple (Ezekiel chapter 40).
God bless you.
77 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:37 am
Not all “Jews” are of Judah, just as Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 tell us. They are EDOMITES, and IMPOSTERS that are passing themselves of as of The House of Judah, and that for a very wicked purpose.
The Orthodox Jews do not understand who these Zionists are, and think they are also “Jews.” They are not. It is the parable of “The Tares”, the “seed” sown by the devil, that while growing up with the wheat, looks exactly the same. However, this changes when the plants mature and bear fruit. That fruit is now coming forth, and it is EVIL CONTINUALLY.
78 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:50 am
Why has Germany and France opposed this war in Iraq, as if it were something abominable???
I will give you the answer. It is simply because it means BILLIONS of lost Iraqi Revenues to BOTH of them.
This war is over OIL, MONEY, and who needs to gain control of the world’s wealth to maintain their authority over THE NEW WORLD ORDER!!!
When you understand all that was transpiring behind the scenes involved with MONEY, you then understand why this war REALLY took place!!!
79 Nathan // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:56 am
I do not see the biblical correlations of great powers going to war and so on with Israel in this supposed end of days, end of times, “prophecies” if you will. Since 1948 Israel has consistently defeated all threats that have risen against her and Israel continues to be terrorized by a group of Arab terrorists called “palestinians”. Who is actually going to invade Israel and have their homelands decimated by Israeli nuclear weapons? Why invade? I do not see this whole end game ending with the antichrist and such. Why would God stop his master plan? Why put humanity through such a horrific time? Same line of thinking I ask if God is so merciful why did he allow September 11th to happen? For that matter why did he allow the Holocaust to take place? I have a belief in God, but what is he really? Where those incidents just victories for evil in their long war against good? Or did God just set up the criteria to live and we just live within those criteria, branching out and creating our own ways but still living within those criteria? In that case does humanity even have a right to exist anymore? Should that not have been revoked some thousands of years ago? Bottom line is somebody set this place up and if it ends up like that it will seem like a cruel joke. But I think the USA and Israel will win in the end. I would say if there is a good and evil on this planet the Arabs are evil and Israel and America are good. And any war is fought with a military and the Arabs do not match up against Israel. I am not trying to attack anyone’s religion either; I am just asking for information and opinions from all of you to help me understand this complicated place we live in. Thanks.
80 Billy // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:58 am
What is your point Esau. Make a point. Are you trying to say that any person that is not a Jew is a waste of humanity. Or should not be in Israel because they are not of the seed of Issac. Your army would not be as powerful with out those imposter’s. How about letting .God separate them out, after all he calls the shots .
81 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 5:41 am
Joyce of post #76, I have time right now to only respond to a small part of your posting. That is concerning Ezekiel chapter 38 verse16. I will say only this at this time. If verse 16 is referring to anytime yet in our future then we must still deal with the identity of who Gog is because verse 17 says:
17″…Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them?”
if this “Gog” has been spoken of by the prophets of Israel for years in advance, then we should be able to identify through Scripture exactly who Ezekiel is speaking of.
I would like to approach this again if you will allow me.
Also Joyce, I want to say I appreciate your tone, Thank you.
82 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 5:58 am
“Is the religious right being duped into accepting the NWO and luring millions in turn to “getting chipped”?
83 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 6:12 am
You are being too general Billy. I never said that. No where in my in my words did I say what you imply.
I do not have an army.
Yes, only God can examine the heart of man.
84 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 7:05 am
The Edomites
Genesis 25 records that Rebekah bore Isaac paternal twin sons, Esau, whose name was changed to Edom, and Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. While still in the womb the two sons of Isaac “struggled together within her.” Yahweh explained this rivalry to Rebekah:
…Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]. (Genesis 25:23)
Soon after the two boys had grown, this promise began to find its fulfillment. Genesis 25 relates that Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red beans. Genesis 27 relates that the patriarchal blessing also became the possession of Jacob.
As a result of the subsequent bitterness and jealousy, Esau would have destroyed Jacob had Yahweh not intervened
85 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 5:47 pm
A sobering question Zionists should ask as well as all Christians, Is it possible to have a relationship with Jesus Christ if our identity is in Judaism?
86 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Callie,
Victor said to you in post #72 -
Callie - read the Bible for yourself and allow it’s truth to speak to you.
I say this is what any person who wants to understand God’s Word should do. I will simply add - Check those things I have said against the Word of God and see if they are true.
87 CALLIE // Oct 6, 2006 at 8:06 pm
AMorton can you explain to me how Jesus can be a Jew? Or was the definition “Jew” around that time? Then was Jesus and Israelite, Hebrew? What of his mother Mary? How can they be Jewish if Moses and Abraham were not?
I know that you are busy. I have been reading the Gideons Bible. It does speak of those “conditions” mentioned in the audio, however, the audio is much more clear and abundant with meaning.
I am sorry, I am not good at deciphering the meaning of versus from the Bible. I need things to be broken down to me in simple terms.
I know everyone is busy. I will try to make do with what I have before me.
Yes, AMorton, I have your link. I am still listening to the audio. I am only on the second one in the middle of it.
Esau, you are very funny. I have a very hard time believing that God would favour one child over another.
If anyone can explain that to me in biblical verse with broken down simple terms, I would appreciate this greatly.
No rush. I understand that everyone is busy. I am sorry to be so slow and dim-witted.
Blessings to all.
88 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Here comes the firestorm, Callie because technically you are correct. In fact Jesus was a Galilean or resident of Galilee (Matthew 26:69; John 7:41), and a Judahite or descendent of the Tribe of Judah. The Judeans of prominence were not of the Tribe of Judah, but of Edomites. Pilate was being ironic when he wrote the sign “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Judeans” for the Cross (John 19:19). That is, “the Galilean who was King of the Judeans,” as in “Queen Victoria of England, Empress of India.” Jesus grew up in Nazareth in Galilee. His disciples were fishermen from the Sea of Galilee. And although He visited Jerusalem, he spent most of His life in his home country of Galilee. John 7:1, “After this Jesus stayed in Galilee; for He could not walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him.” His followers were constrained “for fear of the Jews” (John 7:13, 19:38, 20:19).
This is one of those mistaken beliefs that Jesus was a Jew.
89 Nathan // Oct 7, 2006 at 12:19 am
Does anybody know how an American can move to Israel? I am moving out of the USA and want to go there, I am not Jewish, and am willing to volunteer for the IDF? Any ideas? I am willing to give up my citizenship to.
90 Charles Wesley // Oct 7, 2006 at 12:21 am
Matthew 1 verse 1 gives the lineage of Jesus as being the descendant of Jesse and David , are they not the seed of Issac . The Pharisees didn’t care who he was ,they did not like being told that they were hypocrits and wretched. They had to get rid of that new prophet that did not honour them. He was stealing their fire.
91 Joyce // Oct 7, 2006 at 1:15 am
The genealogy of Jesus Christ is told in the book of Matthew chapter 1 verses 1 thru 17. This is according to the King James Version of the Bible. That is the only proof that I need of Jesus’ Jewish descent.
God bless you.
92 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 1:19 am
Callie, my dear, look at what has been written at another angle.
God hates what Esau represents. God hates the crimes of Esau.
Only for convenience is it written, or do we say that God hates Esau, though God really hates what Esau lacks in his heart, unlike Jacob.
Jesus did not hate the Pharisees, but he despised and hated their evil ways of living.
That is the best that I can explain to you. Unless Morton has a better take.
I am always willing to Listen.
93 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 1:25 am
Nathan,
Then you must go to Israel. And then may God open your eyes and heart while you are there making your sacrifice as soldier for the IDF.
94 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 2:47 am
Joyce, it is all anybody needs, but iron sharpens iron and to learn the details of anything is not necessarily a bad thing.
95 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 2:50 am
Undergodproductions.com discussion board is open for anyone who would like to be a part of friendly exchanges.
http://undergodprod.proboards54.com/index.cgi
96 Charles Wesley // Oct 7, 2006 at 3:02 am
Victor , I agree lets study the word of God as Brethren not as enemies. Jesus himself with all his miracles could not convince all those that heard his Gospel. God knows people seek a sign or proof of their belief ,but they will not find it.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what is required for salvation. Lucifer knows who . He knows Jesus is and trembles. God could make you know who Jesus is ,instead he chose believers . If your heart is set toward God you will see and comprehend , otherwise it will confound you.
Long Live Gods People Blessings and Peace
97 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 3:38 am
Now, let us look at Esau’s character, says one, “did he deserve that God should cast him away?”
I answer, he did. What we know of Esau’s character clearly proves it. Esau lost his birthright. Do not sit down and weep about nor blame God. Esau sold it himself; he sold it for a mess of pottage.
Oh, Esau, it is in vain for thee to say, “I lost my birthright by decree.” No, no. Jacob got it by decree, but you lost it because you sold it yourself, didn’t you?
Was it not your own bargain? Did you not take the mess of red pottage of your own voluntary will, in lieu of the birthright?
Your destruction lies at your own door, because you sold your own soul at your own bargain, and you did it yourself.
Did God influence Esau to do that? God forbid. God is not the author of sin. Esau voluntarily gave up his own birthright. And the doctrine is that every man who loses heaven gives it up himself.
Every man who loses everlasting life rejects it himself. God denies it not to him; he will not come that he may have life.
Why is it that a man remains ungodly and does not fear God? It is because he says, “I like this drink, I like this pleasure, I like this Sabbath-breaking, better than I do the things of God.”
No man is saved by his own free-will, but every man is damned by it that is damned. He does it of his own will; no one constrains him.
98 Victor Passenheim // Oct 7, 2006 at 4:34 am
Rock on Charles, Rock on Joyce!
99 Victor Passenheim // Oct 7, 2006 at 4:36 am
BTW Joyce, I love your pithy answers. Mark on. Of course, they will keep asking the same questions to which there are obvious answers, but you know why.
100 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 5:25 am
Victor, do you live in fear about everything or only those things that challenge your comfort zone? I have yet to hear anything substantial coming from you.
Let’s see isf you can answer this question. How much of Abraham’s blood does it take to be of Israel?
101 Charles Wesley // Oct 7, 2006 at 6:04 am
Deception can be ever so slight and have such great consequences .Doubt can kill your soul . There are so many that strain at a gnat and swallow a camel . Care must be taken that you do not drive away a soul from the Lord as you may be their only contact with Christianity .
You must put self aside and give God the glory. Pride in what you have accomplished in your Christian life is vanity. Your righteousness is like unto filthy rags ,and so goes your ministry outside of God. Man could only fail on his own.
102 Joyce // Oct 7, 2006 at 6:30 am
Thanks Victor,
I just trust in God’s words, and I know I can’t go wrong.
God bless you.
103 CALLIE // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:24 am
Charles!
You completely contradict yourself! And besides, you can be a very dangerous human being when you take the word of God and slant it to your way of “wanting to believe” when perhaps you clear don’t understand the scripture fully.
You are not to take the Lord’s name in vain and use it to suit your needs! This is vanity!
You and Victor speak too much for the Lord and I don’t think this is right.
Yes Charles, deception can be ever so slight and have very great consequences!
Why don’t you give me an example, so that I can understand what you mean by this?
104 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:36 am
Jesus was not a Jew as we now understand the term. Remember, only the small remnant which returned from Babylon, and their descendants , were called Jews.
Moreover, we know from Ezra’s attempts to dissolve and prevent such unions that a great deal of intermarriage took place at this time.
Jesus was, of course, a descended from Judah in fulfillment of the Word of God, but through the line of David, and the house of David were never known as Jews.
The Jews knew that the promised Messiah would be a descendant of Judah, of the Royal House of David.
Notice the inspired words of Zacharias Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people, and hath raised up an horn for salvation for us in the HOUSE OF HIS SERVANT DAVID (Luke 1: 68, 69).
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was (John 7:42).
105 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:40 am
Again the Bible says, “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an Apostle, separated unto the gospel of God… concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID according to the flesh, (Romans 1:1-3) also, “Remember that Jesus Christ OF THE SEED OF DAVID was raised from the dead according to my gospel,” (2 Timothy 2:8)
Notice also these verses, “Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, THE ROOT OF DAVID, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. (Revelation 5:5)
Also, Jesus Himself said, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID, and the bright and morning star. (Revelation 22:16)
So Jesus was not a Jew, but a true descendant of Judah, of the house of David.
It is incorrect to speak of Jesus as a Jew, because the Jews were in Bible days, and are much more today, (Hybrids) a mongrel race, Jesus Christ was no mongrel.
106 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Amen to post 105.
Satan has worked a great deception in the hearts of people who have, by this deception, become Christian Zionists. I trust, because of Scripture, and I hope, because of the Holy Spirit, that God will in His timing free Christian Zionists from this bondage they are presently in. They have become a cult and thus have misused Scripture for their blind purposes. Just as with the Worldwide Church of God, enough time passed and the predictions made that aimed at holding the group together did not come to pass, so is my prayer that Christian Zionist turn to the Holy Spirit of God to open their eyes to correct teaching and to not despise the teacher.
107 Joyce // Oct 7, 2006 at 6:38 pm
My goodness, it seems you struck a nerve Charles.Continue to be true to God’s words, and you will be blessed.
108 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 7:04 pm
No nerve struck at all, Joyce except the nerve of compassion and concern for brothers and sisters in Christ who have been misled by Darbyism and Zionism.
109 CALLIE // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:14 pm
Esau and AMorton’s posts speak to me clearly about Jesus Christ.
How does the geneology of Jesus that you point out, Joyce, oppose what AMorton and Esau have said?
I do not understand Zionism at all. What I have heard is they are atheists. I know, because I’ve heard it said that most Israelis are Atheists.
Now how can the Holy Land be filled with atheists and not people who are believers of God and Jesus Christ?
Shouldn’t the Atheists in Israel be changing there belief system about God and Jesus Christ.
Atheists cannot build a Temple, can they?
I saw on another blog that an Israeli soldier was explaining that he was not a Zionist, but an atheist. I thought that these two things were the same.
He further went on to say that most of Israel is Atheists. I am confused. Isn’t God and Jesus Christ suppose to be the reasons they are in the Holy Land to begin with?
110 CALLIE // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Victor:
“Of course, they will keep asking the same questions to which there are obvious answers, but you know why.”
Really Victor! Are you saying that I am stupid? You have no patience as a true Christian should have.
What arre the obvious answers, Victor? And why should Joyce know why we are asking questions that have obvious answers?
Nothing you have said, Victor, has been all that obvious to me, except that you do not make yourself clear.
Do you mind explaining?
111 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:33 pm
Callie, you are very astute to see another valid reason against the so-called last days restoration of Israel. It just so happens I have an article on this, titled “1948: The Fulfillment of Prophecy?” at http://www.undergodproductions.com/1948.html
When I originally wrote this I sent it out by email to many of my Christian friends. I cannot tell you adequately the type of hate mail I received back. You would think I was telling them something not found in the Bible. Anyway, so goes the story of the hyper-sensitivity of Christian Zionists.
112 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 8, 2006 at 4:51 am
Morton,
Yes. You can lose many so-called friends that way. I hear you and you got that right.
113 CALLIE // Oct 8, 2006 at 6:23 am
What I find disturbing is if Jesus is a Jew, then why are the Jews working all over the United States to get the Bible and prayer out of our schools and to take the name of Jesus the Messiah out of every phase of our National lives?
And I am sorry to say that the Jews have done a very good job of this.
Charles, Joyce, AMorton:
Can you explain why the Jews have wanted to take the bible study and prayer out of our schools?
If Jesus is a Jew and the Jews say that Jesus is a Jew, then why does the name of Jesus offend them so that they are trying to remove his name?
We are not even suppose to say Merry Christmas anymore as it offends the Jews. Does this make any sense?
Nowadays we are only to say Happy Holidays.
I find this absurd!
I will continue to say Merry Christmas all the days of my life! Offensive indeed!
114 AMorton // Oct 8, 2006 at 2:08 pm
The Jews are not necessarily extraordinary in their rejection of Christ, the Son of God. They are simply doing what the lost world does. However they are offended because they are arrogant in their ways. They believe they are the holders and regulators of the Law of Moses and in it they have remained not only with a veil over their face but they have a heart of stone as well. This brings me to my biggest complaint against Jnewswire, Ryan Jones and Stan Goodenough. They stop short of proclaiming Jesus. They live in the Land and they love the people there, and there is no doubt about that, but they do not use this wonderful tool God has given them to proclaim Christ. They do not want to offend the Jews, but the fact is the Gospel is offensive to the unsaved. My prayer each day is for these two talented men that they will return to the mission God placed them there to do and that being to speak of Christ as the only Messiah at every opportunity possible. Maybe they are afraid in some way or another, but I hope they will put aside that fear and serve the Lord God with all their heart and never again deny Christ.
115 Charles Wesley // Oct 9, 2006 at 3:43 am
First of all Jesus was a Jew. The name Jew came from Judaean . This shortened version of Judean or Judahite was first used in 2nd Kings chapter. 16 verse 5 &6. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah . Therefore he is a Jew.
Callie, the Chief Priest didn’t care what tribe Jesus came from. Nor are the Jews still practicing Judaism the friends of Christianity or of Jesus Gospel.
Romans 11 verse 26 thru 32 tells you that All Israel shall be saved, Verse 28 says concerning the Gospel they (Jews) are enemies , But they are beloved for the fathers sake.
Verse 29 ,For the gifts of God are with out repentance.
Those are Gods terminology and not that of man.
The term Jew is misused as it pertains only to the tribe of Judah Of the Israelites.
As for the Russian invasion ; that happens in the latter years and the Lord sends fire upon them . This most extreme event has not happened as of yet. The Antichrist will sit in the temple of God per 2nd Thess 2 verse 4. This is the same Antichrist that makes all not written in the Book of Life to receive his mark. So this event is yet to come. Just in case you didn’t think about it the state of Israel would not have survived without the blessing of God thus far.
Post 101,29
116 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 9, 2006 at 4:04 am
Proponents of Zionism view the war in Iraq as fulfilling biblical prophecy.
Israel will have an easier time removing Christians and Muslims from Palestine (the land Israel believes is theirs by divine right) if Islamic military forces are weakened or eliminated.
The United States military (which happens to be led and advised by many Fundamentalist / Evangelical Christians) is helping to make that happen.
A weaker Muslim world means a stronger Israel, and that will help the Israelis secure the land it believes God has promised them (even if they secure it through violence and human slaughter). This, Christian Zionists believe, will usher in the return of Jesus Christ.
Zionism is based on a distorted and erroneous reading of Scripture, and began with the English preacher John Nelson Darby.
Zionism was perpetuated in America by Cyrus Scofield during the early 20th century, who published the popular Scofield Reference Bible in 1909.
Zionist eschatology is held by most Fundamentalist, Pentecostal, and Evangelical Protestant sects, and is one of the biggest falsehoods ever fabricated about the end times.
117 AMorton // Oct 9, 2006 at 4:47 am
Charles, you never answer my questions so I don’t know why I bother to ask, but I will try again:
Paul does not say in Romans 11 “All Israel will be saved” Instead he says”And so all Israel will be saved,…”
first question to you: In the context of Paul’s letter to the Romans from Chapter 9 through Chapter 11, Who does Paul say Israel is?
Second question: where does it say there will be a Russian invasion?
Third Question: Does the Bible say anywhere what the mark of the beast is? (it does, but do you know where?)
Fourth question and one you still seem to be afraid to answer: According to Scripture how much of Abrahams blood does it take to be called a son and daughter of Abraham?
All of these questions can be answered by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. Are you up to the challenge? When you find the answers out you will see the faulty reasoning behind your theology.
118 AMorton // Oct 9, 2006 at 4:49 am
I wish you had a name I could call you by but a big amen to what you have said in post 116, Esau I Have Hated
119 Victor Passenheim // Oct 9, 2006 at 5:45 am
To AMorton, Esau… (post 116)
Alas, your true colors show. But then, they were never in question.
Oh the bitter fruit you feast on. It will, likewise, be your reward.
120 AMorton // Oct 9, 2006 at 6:01 am
Okay Victor - you are easy judge us outside of Scripture. I don’t care one bit about that. But I do care if you are able to make a stand inside of Scripture. I pose the same questions to you as I did to Charles. Although I know you will not or maybe cannot answer them without affecting your mistaken beliefs concerning national Israel today. What I think is that you do not know the answers. Give it a try though. But if you don’t, then we have seen your judgement of us cast back upon you.
121 Victor Passenheim // Oct 9, 2006 at 10:57 am
AMorton,
Look at post #35. The problem is not with the defense of Scripture. The problem lies with those who refuse to accept it - NO MATTER WHAT. You ignore so much blatant testimony throughout Scripture that you are beyond the ability of being convicted of the truth.
So I put it to rest here.
122 AMorton // Oct 9, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Victor and Charles,
I asked 4 simple but direct questions. You both refuse to answer them. This tells me volumes concerning your insecurity. I have answered your proof texts to a small degree and am working on the others as I have time. I provided a link for you to check on my progress. But you refuse to answer 4 little questions.
Your wall is crumbling down around you.
123 Charles Wesley // Oct 10, 2006 at 12:33 am
A.M
Your trifling bores me as well I am sure as others . The real question is Charles and all you people out there can’t you see how smart I am? I can cut and paste your post and pick them apart and try to make you look stupid so I can look smart . You do this even though you know that there is not a point to make. I have seen that your personal site goes the same way . No sale !
Since you can’t read the qualifying statement (in the latter years ) concerning the events of Ezekiel maybe you can read
Zechariah chapter 12 where Jerusalem becomes a cup of trembling, a burdensome stone, the land of Israel taken but not cut off from Jerusalem , Zechariah 14 tells of the Lord fighting for Israel . Zechariah the same thing as Ezekiel. The Lord Jesus has not fought for Israel yet and that means that God wants them in Israel and they will build the temple. Allyn you can’t see the forest for all the trees. Stop examining the bark . I hear me ,my and I in your orations, is there no place for God?
124 CALLIE // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:00 am
Charles,
I have heard from many - friends and assocaites - that the promise to Israel became null and void with the coming of Jesus Christ, Gods Son to change the ways of the transgressing Jews of that time.
Israel was to be no longer. Only as a frame of mind or as a people, but no land.
How do you explain this, Charles? Don’t forget Charles, the Jews sinned three times while God was patient, waiting for them to change their ways. But they broke God’s covenent. By the timie Jesus came there was to be no more land of Israel for the Jews.
Charles, how do you explain why the Jews do not want bible study and prayer in our North American schools?
Charles, I do not find AMorton boring. He’s been very patient and he answers in detail and in depth.
Why is the Lord Jesus fighting for Israel and who is the Lord Jesus fighting against.
I read the bible Charles, but I don’t understand the passages most of the time. I have to have someone to make me understand.
125 CALLIE // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:03 am
Victor,
What do you mean by “true colors showing”? We are having a debate. I do not see that Esau or AMorton have hidden anything away from anyone.
You are assuming deceit. That is totally unfair.
126 AMorton // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:07 am
That’s fine Charles. If you don’t know the answers to my four questions then just say so. No need to cover that up with insults to me. I have no emotional stake in this if you can’t understand my questions. I will gladly make them simpiler for you if you want. Instead you seem to be embarrased because of your ignorance. Please don’t be embarrased. Learning just comes slower to some more then to others.
127 Charles Wesley // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:08 am
Callie
The HOLY SPIRIT will instruct you. All men are Liars. We all have our axe to grind and may not know we are wrong if we think we have all the answers. A question to you , what do you think of the Holy Trinity ?
128 AMorton // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:15 am
See what Charles is doing, Callie? He is trying to cover up the fact that he cannot answer our questions to him without revealing the weakness in his own theology. If he wants to just walk away, that’s fine but if I were you I wouldn’t fall into his trap.
129 Charles Wesley // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:23 am
Allyn
What is your opinion on the Holy Trinity? And what do you think you are trying to accomplish with your post . Is it the work of God that you are doing ? Truthfully I am not sure. Instead of a brotherly embrace in the Lord you poke and prod. If you wanted adoration then you are in it for pride .
130 Charles Wesley // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:35 am
What no answers!
131 AMorton // Oct 10, 2006 at 1:41 am
I believe God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Three in one eternal and self-existant. I believe Jesus is the Creator of all things and that He has been one with the Fater for eternity having no beginning and no end. I believe the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. Jesus said He must go so that the Comfortor would come. That Comfortor is the Holy Spirit.
If I speak lies then it is not the work of God. But if I speak truth then I should be able to show that truth from God’s Holy Word.
I have not poked and prodded. What I have done, it seems, is to disrupt your comfort zone. In a way this has been my intention so that you may look into Scripture for yourself rather than take the word of someone else. If you have done that and still hold to your eschatology I am okay with that.
132 Pastor Darren // Oct 10, 2006 at 2:17 am
Is there any question that Jesus is a Jew? Seriously?
133 Pastor Darren // Oct 10, 2006 at 2:27 am
It is so simple, just read your Bible. Matt. 1 gives the lineage of Jesus Christ. It starts with Abraham, through to Jacob, Joseph, and Judah. Then to David and through to Jesus. In fact, verse 17 tells us just that. These are simply and biblically the Jews. Good, bad, or indifferent. Jesus is a Jew.
134 Pastor Darren // Oct 10, 2006 at 2:29 am
Anyone? Anyone? Hello, Is this thing on?
135 Pastor Darren // Oct 10, 2006 at 2:47 am
btw, God is not through with the Jews. Romans 11:16 -29 tells us this. Revelations 7:4-8 says that 144,000 Jews are sealed in their foreheads during the tribulation. Also read Revelation 14:1-5.
136 AMorton // Oct 10, 2006 at 2:53 am
I have no question in my mind the lineage of Jesus our Lord. I know the the Matthew account and believe it. I also understand the question asked by Callie. I think I understand where she is coming from. What I do not understand is why questions seem to offend some people. Like everyone, I suppose, I still have many questions concerning God, His nature, His love, Why this and why that. But in no way does this hinder my faith, but rather enhances my faith.
Now in closing; I will back off from this blog topic. I will continue to answer the question asked of me if anyone is interested to know how I will answer them at the link I gave many days ago.
137 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 10, 2006 at 8:43 am
If you ask the average deceived blasphemer who
calls himself a Christian who Jesus was, he will tell you that Jesus was a Jew.
Nothing could be further
from the truth. Jesus was not a Jew racially, Jesus was not a Jew politically, and Jesus was not a Jew
religiously.
Anyone who disagrees with the expressed teachings in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ is
guilty of blaspheming the doctrines of Christ.
To call Jesus Christ an antichrist Jew is to call God an antichrist Jew, because the simple truth is for
those who will read their Bibles that there are a number of reasons why Jesus Christ could not have been a
Jew.
First of all, he could not have been a Jew because he was God in the flesh. For those of you who do
not believe this, you need to read John 1:18 (AST):
“No one has seen God at any time. The Only-Begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He explains.”
138 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 10, 2006 at 8:48 am
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry — one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.
According to Jewish law:
Jesus was not a prophet.
Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets — Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.
139 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 10, 2006 at 8:52 am
According to Jewish law:
The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father — and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David!
According to Jewish law:
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvoth remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”
With all this in evidence by Jewish law, how was Jesus a Jew?
140 CALLIE // Oct 10, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Well Charles,
I suppose that is going to be as good of an answer that I am going to get, but I still feel the need for more than what you offer.
I do not understand why you ask about the Holy Trinity? Are you testing me, Charles?
What do I think of the Holy Trinity?
In a nutshell:
God is love. And He gives Himself totally. He gives everything He is – His entire divine nature – to His Son and His Spirit, so that Father, Son, and Spirit exist eternally as persons in a communion of total, self-giving love.
HYMN TO THE
HOLY TRINITY
“My hope is the Father,
my refuge is the Son,
my protection is
the Holy Spirit.
O Holy Trinity,
glory to You!”
Now I don’t really know what you expect for an answer, for there is no other way to answer your question, except how I have given you my answer above.
You know Charles, it does say in some Bible versus that have been interpreted:
The fulfillment of prophecy for Israel is when all Israel is filled with its children the Jews.
Many different interpretations basically say that. However, I have been reading alot about Israel and more than 50% of the State is Agnostic and/or Atheist.
How is the prophecy, temple, and Jesus fit into this when all of Israel is not filled with Jews?
I have been reading some of the blogs of IDF soldiers and they say that a lot of Israel is Atheist. But Israel will not let anyone to live in it unless they are Jewish of have converted and spent a few years studying. The State needs a large amount of proof for this.
Okay, so what happens then? When these people finally get into Israel, they change their ways and decide not to be Jewish anymore??
Look, Charles and Victor, we have to all make sure we are going in the right direction. If Israel will not fulfill its side of the prophecy then we are all wasting our time.
To me, it all seems like one mass of confusion.
141 CALLIE // Oct 10, 2006 at 5:31 pm
No AMorton, I do not intend to fall into any trap.
Now look what you have done, Charles. AMorton is moving on and all he asked of you were to answer in detail in what you believed in scripture.
You gave me a very soft answer to my question about the Jews taking bible prayer out of the schools and about “Merry Christmas”.
I find THIS IN ITSELF an abomination. For then what is Christianity, and what has this faith been doing all its great existence?
And by the way, I read in an article how the Israelis were offended by the cross that Pope John wore on his visit to Jerusalem in 1986. Well aren’t the three main religions born out of that Holy Land??
So why on EARTH should Jews be offended?
Another thing, Charles, I do not see Allyn in this for adoration or for pride. I do not understand why you would say such a thing.
Esau, you are confusing my thinking. You sure know how to stir the pot!
I am going to have to get back to you on what you just posted at a later time.
142 Joyce // Oct 10, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Callie,
I don’t understand how it’s Charles’ fault, that AMorton left. It seems to me that it’s okay, for ya’ll to criticize whatever anyone else says. But ya’ll get defensive ,whenever anyone else gives their opinions. I thank you two need to grow up !
143 AMorton // Oct 10, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Joyce, I think you need to look at the posts again to see who is defensive. I am leaving this paticular article because it was only getting criticisim from Victor and Charles. They should be the ones you need to address rather than poor Callie. So as to who should grow up, I think if one does not have anything good to say about another that one should maybe just keep quite. Maybe you don’t agree with that either. Callie needs no defense but I think it is unfair of your three or four to insult anyone hear and then on top of it all never answer one question put to you but only ask questions complete off subject as some sort of come back. I won’t stoop to that level. There are plenty of people who want to learn both sides of an issue, but quite frankly, I haven’t found that to be true of Victor, Joyce, or Charles, but I found instead those three to be the most vocal in handing out insults and arrogance.
Good day to you three.
God bless you Callie and Esau for your calm firmness in approach.
144 Charles Wesley // Oct 11, 2006 at 2:16 am
So Esau you are denying that Jesus came when the Romans ruled Israel ? The Jews did the same thing. Of course that does not make you a Jew it just makes you lost if you believe that. First of all he was of the tribe of Judah . How about all those miracles he did in the name of God. Does Satan oppose himself ? You may not read the full content of those scriptures concerning the mission of the Lord.
Callie , Yes I wanted to know if you were a Jehovah’s Witness or not. As far as the Jews being opposed to all signs of Christianity, God addressed that when he said talking about the Jews “as concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election ,they
are beloved for the Fathers’ sake. If Jesus was not a Jew of the tribe of Judah then he would not be the saviour, Explain otherwise?
145 AMorton // Oct 11, 2006 at 2:44 am
This nonsense coming from you, Charles cannot be ignored. First of all I knew you were on a JW kick. Way up in the earlier posts you tipped your hand on that. You seem to think everyone is a JW for some reason or another.
Secondly, If you were really take a look at what Esau was saying you would then realize that Esau is not saying anything even close to what you are accusing him/her of. What I think is that you simply have a narrow worldview and are immature in the understanding of the things you try to convince us you are so proficient in. Esau is actually giving you a history lesson as well as a geneology lesson and you instead falsely accuse him/her and in effect call Esau a fool. Have you not read what it means to call someone a fool.
Lets read the last 1/2 of Matthew 5:22 together:
whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
I think you need to repent of this and ask forgiveness of Esau.
Why don’t you just ask the more direct question of Esau and see what his/her answer is. The direct question is this - “Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God?” This is all Jesus ever claimed He was. He never claimed to be a Jew, nor a Gentile, He never denied when accused of anything but He did claim to be the One sent by the Father.
Esau does not need to fit your idea of things nor is he/she in need to be made in your image. We are all sinners under grace.
Try practicing your faith in a loving way for a change.
146 Joyce // Oct 11, 2006 at 3:01 am
AMorton,
You just proved my point. Thank you. If you don’t think that giving you scriptures are answers to what we have been discussing, then I don’t understand what you want. And as far as how many posts that I have answered, you are right there has only been a few. I didn’t know I had to have a certain amount of posts to state my opinion. Maybe you should give me the rules. By the way I do have a life besides doing this,
147 Joyce // Oct 11, 2006 at 3:36 am
Allyn Morton,
148 AMorton // Oct 11, 2006 at 4:07 am
Joyce, my saying three or four was not about the number of posts you have. The “your” was a typo and should have been “you” meaning you three or four people. Simple as that.
149 Charles Wesley // Oct 11, 2006 at 4:28 am
Allyn Morton,
First of all I didn’t call him a fool ,you did! Jesus came from the tribe of Judah . His mother was from the tribe of Judah. Jew is short for Judaean . The bible says he was from the tribe of Judah so He fulfilled the prophesies or he was not the Son of God. I believe he is. You also didn’t quote the scripture right by the King James version ( 2nd Thess 2 verse 4 ( who opposes and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God ) . This was on your site. I wonder are you Esau and Callie or are they family? Also you Ignore the Lord fighting against the nations that come against Israel ( Israel being regathered and they will rebuild the temple to support the practice of the Law ) and the God will send fire upon those nations. That has not happened yet . I agree that the only reason that the temple will be rebuilt is because the Jews want a temple.
I don’t believe that God has requisitioned the temple . But the Antichrist will use it to try to ascend above God. Then God will reveal the impostor for who he really is. Zechariah 12 & 14 backs up Ezek. 38 &39 with the Lord sending fire on those countries that comes against Israel. Also the plague
Zech. 14 verse12 is a very good description of a Nuclear reprisal and I don’t believe it would be the first time God used
man to fulfill his will.
150 Charles Wesley // Oct 11, 2006 at 4:29 am
Victor where are you?
151 AMorton // Oct 11, 2006 at 5:30 am
Charles, I use the NKJV most of the time. If I am in error in one way or the other by misquoting the Bible then I want to correct that error. Please tell me which article of mine you are referring to so that I may see the part you are taking issue with.
I am only one person. I am not three in one as you seem to be suggesting.
No I did not call Esau a fool, however you applied its meaning to him/her by saying that he did not believe in Jesus. Twist it anyway you want to but since Jesus is God and since you accuse a brother or sister they are lost when in fact they do believe then you have in affect called that person a fool and you have also borne false witness of that person. I am saying that this is dangerous ground to be on. Unless you know them personally I hardly think you are in the position to judge them.
Charles I will try to answer any question you put to me but put the question to me honestly and not with pretense. Do not ask the question if you really don’t want to know. I was not born yesterday and I can read a set up as well as anyone. I simply desire an exchange of ideas from our personal studies. I don’t like this format for doing so but this is where we are at this moment.
There is no way to preview and sometimes typos change the whole meaning of something. Let me recommend a Bible discussion board I have enjoyed. It has all side discussed and is well monitored. The End Times section seems to get thousands of viewers a day and a couple of hundred posts to that thread alone. You will have plenty of people on you side and many on the opposite. It goes well with hardly any trouble. Sometimes feathers get ruffed but that can happen.
Here is the link:
http://bibleforums.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12
152 CALLIE // Oct 11, 2006 at 6:25 am
Really Charles!
I am NOT AMorton and I am not of his family! So that means that AMorton cannot be me! What nonsense you speak! As for Esau, he (I’m assuming he, because of the name Esau, but I realize that “he” is using this from a title of a story of Rebeka and Isaac’s twin sons) - as for Esau, he is not of my family, either!
But I will say that I would be in good company if I were to meet these two people.
Now Charles if this is the road you want to take then maybe you are Joyce, or maybe you are Victor! Well, how do you like that?
Is it so hard for you to believe, Charles, that there are people that will come onto this blog with differing view points from yours, as well as view points you may not like at all?
What, Charles? Does it make you feel comfortable that it is just “one” person instead of a few more? That’s just plain insecurity.
Also it is insulting to US! As if “one” of us has to be many people. UTTER NONSENSE, CHARLES.
Do you not think that I do not have good reason to be heart broken over the war in Iraq? I have friends in Kentucky who lost their cousin in the summer of ‘06 to the this stinking war in Iraq. Lately, I have begun to think that we have over-played our hand in this matter over Iraq.
And I know darn well this is tied to Israel. So I get quite upset when I hear people complaining how good, decent, hard-working Christian people are NOT doing enough for the Jews and Israel. WE ARE DYING in Iraq and the Canadians are losing their own in Afghanistan. And I believe the reasons are not good enough anymore.
Do you understand where I am coming from Charles? Good decent Christians are fighting for the security of Israel whose population is over 50% athiests and agnostics. This does not sit well with me. I do not like our North American countries being used.
153 CALLIE // Oct 11, 2006 at 6:44 am
What I meant to say, is that I do not like Christian men and women of our nations being used when there looks to me as if no good will come from this war. That’s what I meant to say in my last sentence.
Charles, I appreciate that you are trying to explain things to me. I read what you say and I try to take it in.
Let me move away from religion for a tiny second: I really do not believe that God would want any of us to use Nuclear power against each other. I realize that the USA used the Atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I may have got the second one wrong) - anyway, I do not believe that God wanted that either.
So your last sentence, Charles, about God fulfilling his will through us with such violence, I just cannot agree. Unless you can explain this more clearly.
You do realize that Israel has been building its Nuclear program since 1958. Now Israel, as opposed to Iran has by far more powerful Nuclear ammunitions than any other country besides the USA. Well I am not sure about Russia. But you do realize that if Israel were to use its Nuclear power to attack it would destroy itself.
And that makes no sense at all.
Now do not get me wrong. I am all for Iran to stop its Nuclear program. So I am sure we can all agree on that. However, it doesn’t seem fair that Israel gets to keep building its program, do you not agree?
Perhaps, I am getting way over my head on this subject.
154 CALLIE // Oct 11, 2006 at 6:46 am
Joyce,
Thank you for your concern over my temperment and maturity, but I am fine and very well grown up already, as I know that you are, as well.
155 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 11, 2006 at 7:06 am
I am a male. I am not Callie, nor am I Allyn Morton. I am from Western Canada.
I am glad for the laugh, Charles. And no, I am not lost.
******* ********* ********* *********
According to Jewish Law:
MISTRANSLATED VERSES “REFERRING” TO JESUS:
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text — which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth.
The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
156 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 11, 2006 at 7:12 am
Two Very Good Reasons Why a Jew Cannot Believe in Jesus
Are Clearly Stated in the New Testament.
Submitted By
Hakham Meir Yosef Rekhavi
Are you circumcised? Then why bother to follow a Christ who will profit you nothing? But you may say, Paul is only talking to Gentiles so that they should not first join the Jews via the Abrahamic covenant in order to become followers of Jesus. Not so for the next verse of the same chapter warns:
This means that all Jews are debtors to do the whole Torah. Paul then goes on to say that if you are keeping the Torah you are fallen from grace (vs. 4). Jews are circumcised, therefore Christ will profit them nothing, because they are circumcised they must keep the Torah, and because they keep the Torah they are fallen from grace.
157 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 11, 2006 at 7:14 am
Two Very Good Reasons Why a Jew Cannot Believe in Jesus
Are Clearly Stated in the New Testament.
So Paul a man and only a man whose logic defies reason says, damned if you keep the Torah (Gal. 5:4, 3:11) and damned if you don’t keep the Torah (Gal. 3:10).
But YHWH the Eternal One, creator of the universe, giver of life, all-merciful, all-powerful giver of the Torah to the Children of Yisrael says, “My judgments you shall do, and my laws you shall keep to walk in them, I am YHWH your God. And you shall keep my laws and my judgments, which when a human does them, he lives by them, I am YHWH.” (Lev. 18:4-5) and, “And all that I say to you, you are to keep.” (Ex. 23:13) and again, “Only be strong and very courageous, to keep and to do according to all the Torah, which Moshe my servant commanded you; turn not from it to the right or to the left, in order that you may prosper wherever you go.” (Josh. 1:7)
So to whom are you going to listen, Paul or YHWH?
158 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 11, 2006 at 7:22 am
JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION (back)
Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation — i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He’ll tell everyone, not just one person.
Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God’s true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show — assuming they are genuine — is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.
Judaism, unique among all of the world’s major religions, does not rely on “claims of miracles” as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of “miracles” to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
This is according to Jewish Law.
159 AMorton // Oct 11, 2006 at 2:25 pm
I want to make something crystal clear on what I believe concerning Christ the Savior.
6 I believe He was crucified but His life was not take but instead He gave it.
160 Joyce // Oct 11, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Callie,
I am not Charles,I am my own person. I’m sorry if I insulted you for saying,that it was childish of you to blame Charles for AMorton’s leaving. After all, we are all just stating our own opinions and beliefs. To answer your comments on post # 113, about the Jews being responsible for taking the Bible and prayer out of our schools. All I know is that Madeline Murray O’Hare was the one responsible for that, and I don’t know if she was Jewish or not. And I also will continue to say Merry Christmas, no matter what anyone says about it. Anyway, this will be my last comment. I don’t really think that I am suited for these discussions. Except for this, I’m not much on long comments. I usually, just make my point. I hope you all, will continue with your discussions and be true to God’s words.
Goodbye and God bless you all.
161 Charles Wesley // Oct 11, 2006 at 11:19 pm
To all : I a believe everything stated in post 159 .We may differ in prophesy but not on the main subject.
Joyce please come back and lets talk . Victor, buddy how about it?
Peace A Morton
Esau I believe Paul was saying for the Jews ,If you remain under the law you are liable for the whole law . If you do not keep the whole law then you are damned by the law verses being under grace.
Callie , As for the nuclear bomb killing all in the immediate area, that is not the case when using Neutron Bombs. Look up Sam Cohen the inventor of that device. A neutron bomb
can be made the size of a grape fruit. They can be used within a few miles of the advancing lines and will not damage a large area. Slaughter by the sword or by a bomb or by what ever that hit Russia in 1908 that did the same damage.
And that comet (suspected) wiped out a whole village with out a trace.
162 Charles Wesley // Oct 11, 2006 at 11:24 pm
By the way I have learned more about the Jews and the blood lines that lead to Christ. I guess I needed to study that area a little more.
163 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 11, 2006 at 11:51 pm
“Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.” (Matthew 5:9)
Joyce, I don’t believe that Callie meant that you were Charles. It sounds to me that she was just being sarcastic.
164 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 12, 2006 at 1:11 am
“For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” -Romans 16:18
BUSH IS SERVING ZIONIST ORGANIZATIONS INSTEAD OF JESUS CHRIST –
A Signed Contract: Bush and Jewish ADL Agree
To further convince his Jewish masters that his conversion to Zionism was legitimate and that his ditching of Jesus was the real thing, Bush was evidently told by the ADL boss, Abe Foxman, to put it in writing.
And Governor Bush, like some kind of sock puppet, dutifully complied. His office even furnished Old Hater Abe Foxman and his ADL Jewish henchmen a letter to that effect signed by Bush personally.
That prompted the ADL to also put their approval of Bush’s Judaic conversion in writing as well.
As Dave McNeely and Ken Herman, reporters with the Austin American-Statesman newspaper (online archives, December 13, 1998 page B3), explained: “In a statement that could prove helpful if Governor George W. Bush enters the presidential race, the Anti-Defamation League has put its seal in writing.”
The ADL’s Abe Foxman (Fox. Hmmm… Is that “fox” as in Herod’s title given by Jesus, “That old fox”?) was no doubt greatly impressed that Bush had so easily and without fanfare demoted Jesus and had so quickly developed such a healthy respect for Judaism and other religions.
“George W. Bush,” Foxman and his ADL hate organization crowed, “has proven his commitment to tolerance and diversity, and the principles of religious freedom.”
165 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 12, 2006 at 1:12 am
“Howbeit no man spake openly of Him for fear of the Jews.”
—John 7:13
“But he that denieth ME before men shall be denied before the angels of God.”
—Luke 12:9
166 AMorton // Oct 12, 2006 at 1:17 am
Peace to you as well Charles.
167 CALLIE // Oct 12, 2006 at 5:28 am
Fine then Charles, I appreciate the new information.
Joyce, I also appreciate your new information.
Yes, I was being sarcastic about you being Charles. I was only making a point. Thank you Joyce for the apology.
Thank you AMorton for post 159. I whole-heartedly agree.
Esau, I do not believe that George Bush has become a Jew.
Would you mind explaining??
168 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 12, 2006 at 8:26 pm
For Christians (and the great number of Jews not fooled by Kabbalistic Zionism and evolutionism)–and for anybody else who can receive a love of the Truth (II Thess. 2:10)–it is time to understand that the source of all those billions of years that uphold Satan’s kingdom of Babylon today derives from an ancient mystic spiritual force determined to smash Bible Christianity and bring about the triumph of Kabbalism, Zoharism, and Talmudism.
169 Charles Wesley // Oct 13, 2006 at 2:14 am
Where did all of those billions come from? You have lost me.
170 Nathan // Oct 13, 2006 at 3:06 am
I think that Muhammad is Satan and the Iranian President is the Anti-Christ.
171 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 13, 2006 at 8:29 am
The essence of the Torah, as summarizedl: “What is hateful to you, do not do to others,” reflects the historic experience and ethical consciousness of the Jewish people. Both this historic experience and ethical consciousness must sensitize us to defend the right of all who dwell among us.
“When a stranger resides with you in you land, you shall not wrong him. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens: you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God” (Lev 19:33-34).
We pray to bring nearer the day for the fulfillment of the prophecy of Zephaniah (3:13), “The remnant of Israel will not act iniquitously, nor speak falsely; neither shall there be found in their mouths the tongue of deceit,” and of Isaiah (Is 2), “When nation will not lift up sword against nation, and no longer train for war.”
172 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 13, 2006 at 8:32 am
A biblical view can’t be anti-Arab and pro-Israel, or anti-Israel and pro-Arab. God’s heart is where justice is.
173 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 13, 2006 at 8:48 am
Do not worry about tomorrow (Mt. 6:34)
Scripture teaches us to be wary of predictions about the future. The prophet declares, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord” (Is. 55:8-9).
Jesus points out, “…you cannot interpret the signs of the times. An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah” (Mt. 16:3-4).
As Jesus was preparing to ascend into the heavens after his resurrection, speaking of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, he said, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority” (Acts 1:6-7).
The prophet Ezekiel proclaims to the Israelites returned from exile, “You shall allot [the land] as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who reside among you. They shall be to you as citizens of Israel” (Ez. 47:22).
Doing prophetic justice involves both tenderness towards peoples and scrutiny of their governments’ policies.
174 AMorton // Oct 13, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Esau I am glad you are pointing these things out to me and others. I believe if we (all) could just look once through the eyes of God we would have it all cleared up and this Zionist thing would just go away. God IMHO clearly teaches against zionism and you have given us all the scripture most would need to prove it. However many of us are so indoctrinated with dispensational thinking to one degree or the other, and influenced by authors and preachers that we just cannot budge from our comfort zone. God wants us immoveable in only one thing and that is concerning Christ but in the things we are shown that are different from our worldview and has been supported in Scripture, then we need to re-examine our view and begin to get back in line with what God is teaching us.
175 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 13, 2006 at 4:40 pm
I would say: May God shine his light on you, AMorton.
But God does shine his light on you, there is no question or doubt.
And I am heartily grateful for the people like you, in this world.
176 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 13, 2006 at 5:17 pm
In post 175 I meant “His” not “his”.
God’s words to Abraham, “I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse” (Gn. 12:3).
However, when Israel strayed from righteousness, God who loved Israel became angry and withheld himself from Israel. In Isaiah God says, “…Ah, sinful nation, people laden with iniquity, offspring who do evil…who have forsaken the Lord…When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you, even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.” (Is. 1:4-15).
To restore themselves to his grace, God says the Israelites should “…seek justice, rescue the oppressed…” (Is. 1:17) At a different time, speaking through Malachi, God says, “Then I will draw near to you for judgment, I will be swift to bear witness against…those who oppress the…widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien…” (Mal. 3:5).
177 Charles Wesley // Oct 13, 2006 at 11:56 pm
I have learned something talking with you Anti Christian Zionist. I am indeed guilty of being a Christian Zionist and I am proud of it. Yes Israel has failed God many times and He has punished them harshly ,but God deems them beloved and I honor his people . Just as I have failed God so miserably Jesus says we are his beloved and so God honors Christs people . So I will not try to set parameters for Gods dispensing of His mercy and I hope He will not be to critical of me. And lastly , I will let God separate out his people of Israel and deal with them as he will. I am pretty sure it will be alright. He knows what he is doing.
178 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 14, 2006 at 12:50 am
To “love kindness” means to follow the Great Commandment given by Jesus: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Mt. 22:34-40).
The apostle Paul writes, “For [Christ] is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us” (Eph. 2:14).
Because in Christ “There is no longer Jew or Greek” (Gal. 3:28-29), we are called to show such kindness toward all of God’s people.
179 AMorton // Oct 14, 2006 at 12:57 am
Charles, I am not anti-Christian Zionist. I think it would be a perfectly lovely Christian movement for the Jewish race, the problem is its not Biblical. I think it is wonderful to love any paticular group of people and hope God will save them inspite of their rejection of the only One sent to accomplish that sacrificial event. The problem is its not Biblical. No one can approach the Father except through Christ. I think it would be a grand plan if God would just forgive us our sins without any action on our part or the part of the Jew to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the trouble is its not Biblical. Wouldn’t it be just peachy keen if at the very moment Christ comes and the resurrection of the dead occurs and the living, in Christ are changed in a twinkling of an eye, and that all the evil and unbelieving people of the world were to be given a split second second chance to see that Jesus is Lord and has not come in Judgement and all are saved at that moment? I think that would be cool but its not Biblical.
So you see Charles and all Christian Zionists, its not that I am anti-Christian Zionist, but zionism is simply not Biblical and so when it comes to a choice to believe the truth or the notion of some Christian movement, I’l take the truth every time.
180 Charles Wesley // Oct 14, 2006 at 2:13 am
First of all you are not the one I was talking about . The phrase ” you Christian Zionist ” does elude to a resentment against those people .
Evidently you and I do not interpret Romans 11 the same way. But I guess that I am not predisposed to the mind set that the Jews were cast out and Gods calling is NOT with out repentance. To believe this means ( I knew you before I formed you in your mothers belly ) that God saying that he could not have known that the Jews would reject Jesus. Did he make a mistake? Did the Dome of the Rock just get in the way of the temples construction site for no reason. I believe,
that God has set up the whole thing to happen when he is ready. How about the prophesy about Esau and Jacob? God knows, He does know the future after all He has already predestined it to be as He wills. Re -read carefully as you may have overlooked something or been predisposed as we all can be , Romans 11.
Peace be with you A M
181 Charles Wesley // Oct 14, 2006 at 2:24 am
BOAST NOT AGAINST NOT THE BRANCHES
Romans 11 v. 18
182 AMorton // Oct 14, 2006 at 2:34 am
Thanks for the clarification on the CZ bit. concerning Romans chapter 11, Chapter 11 cannot be understood alone. You must also include chapters 9 and 10.
183 AMorton // Oct 14, 2006 at 2:43 am
The true Israel (the church) is indeed the Jewish tree of faith, only with some new, non-Jewish branches added on. It is Paul’s purpose to discuss the manner in which the promises of God have been fulfilled to the true Israel, which he does by showing that not all Jews are really part of that “Israel”(Romans 9:6) and that some Gentiles are (Rom.9:23-24). This is illustrated by the use of the figure of an olive tree with branches broken off and others grafted in (Rom. 11:16-24).
The idea of an olive tree with branches broken off is taken from Jeremiah 11:16, where the tree represents ethnic Israel stripped of its rebellious and unbelieving members (branches). The bit about Gentile branches being grafted in is not from Jeremiah, but is Paul’s own contribution, where he seems to be saying that Gentile branches have been added to the tree to “replace” the Jewish branches that have been broken off.
Of course, the tree itself is not “replaced” with a new tree (and those accused of holding “replacement theology” never suggest such a thing). The tree in its final form has continuity with the tree at its roots. The tree has always been Israel, the covenant people of God. What Paul tells us is that the tree (Israel) is not distinctively Jewish anymore. It is made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles…which makes it the same thing as what the New Testament calls “the church.”
The church does not “replace” Israel, but the church is Israel. The tree with its present branches is the mature form of the same tree as a sapling. It is the mature, or “fulfilled” form of the same tree. Thus the amillennial position is not accurately referred to as “replacement theology” so much as “fulfillment theology.” Ethnic/national Israel, in the Old Testament, is the type , of which the spiritual Israel, in the New Testament, is the antitype, or the consummation.
184 Charles Wesley // Oct 14, 2006 at 2:45 am
Esau
This is true when both are under GRACE ,but there are still Jews not in Christ. The Book of Romans chapter 11 will explain that God will deal with all of his chosen that were blinded until the time of the gentiles is over. That should not concern me and you though. Matthew20 deals with this same thing we are seeing here .They maybe don’t deserve it ,but do we?
185 Charles Wesley // Oct 14, 2006 at 3:07 am
The True Vine ,
John 15 comes to mind as a indirect reference to the Olive Tree in Romans 11. The first 10 verses in John 15 speaks against the occasional Christian. Romans 11 tells me that if you abide not in disbelief you will be grafted back in. Even those Jews when the Lord comes back and still remains in unbelief will be with the other unbelievers.
186 AMorton // Oct 14, 2006 at 4:04 am
“Even those Jews when the Lord comes back and still remains in unbelief will be with the other unbelievers.”
I agree with that.
187 AMorton // Oct 15, 2006 at 8:28 pm
“I will take away from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the scent of myrrh, and the light of a lamp, and the whole land shall be destroyed” [Jer. 25:10]. For the whole service of the law has been abolished from them, and henceforth and forever they remain without a feast.” (St. Athanasius, Letters [vi])
“So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness has come, Who was made the Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed. And the kingdom of Jerusalem ceased at the same time, because kings were to be anointed among them only until the Holy of holies had been anointed. Moses also prophesies that the kingdom of the Jews shall stand until His time, saying, “A ruler shall not fail from Judah nor a prince from his loins, until the things laid up for him shall come and the Expectation of the nations Himself.” And that is why the Savior Himself was always proclaiming “The law and the prophets prophesied until John.” So if there is still king or prophet or vision among the Jews, they do well to deny that Christ is come; but if there is neither king nor vision, and since that time all prophecy has been sealed and city and temple taken, how can they be so irreligious, how can they so flaunt the facts, as to deny Christ Who has brought it all about?.. What more is there for their Expected One to do when he comes? To call the heathen? But they are called already. To put an end to prophet and king and vision? But this too has already happened. To expose the Goddenyingness of idols? It is already exposed and condemned. Or to destroy death? It is already destroyed. What then has not come to pass that the Christ must do? What is there left out or unfulfilled that the Jews should disbelieve so light-heartedly? The plain fact is, as I say, that there is no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ.
188 Charles Wesley // Oct 16, 2006 at 3:55 am
Say what ? Just spit it out!
189 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 16, 2006 at 10:35 am
Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet.
We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects.
In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best.
Other races are considered as human excrement.
Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races.
Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.”
–Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, 1977-1983
190 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 16, 2006 at 10:44 am
A most relevant quote was uttered by venerated, supposedly immortal Lubavitcher Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, who died in 1994:
… The body of a Jewish person is of a totally different quality from the body of [members] of all nations of the world..…A non-Jew’s entire reality is only vanity.
It is written, ‘And the strangers shall guard and feed your flocks’ (Isaiah 61:5). The entire creation [of a non-Jew] exists only for the sake of the Jews…”
191 CALLIE // Oct 16, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Charles,
I think what AMorton is saying is that the jews are in denial of Jesus. That they are making up prophesies on their own when the prophesies have already come and gone and there would be no more after John, as Jesus said. I don’t know which ones are making up the prophecies. Is it the ones in Israel, America, or is it the Christian Zionists?
That really sounds like a dumb question.
I don’t know how anyone can be saved without a total belief in Christ. To have a total belief in Christ is to not create war.
192 Charles Wesley // Oct 17, 2006 at 1:28 am
You will defend yourself when attacked ,and Israel is constantly being attacked no matter what they do. They unilaterally left Gaza and Lebanon and what is the results?
John is the last prophet of the New Testament . Not all of the prophecies has been fulfilled. For example The return of Christ , the reign of the antichrist , the tribulation , the thousand year reign not to mention armageddon . And those things that A.M. does not agree with that concerning the gathering of the Jews and rebuilding of the temple. The Christian does not need the Temple for religious purposes, but the temple will be rebuilt .Whether by rebellious Jews or ultra religious Jews or want to be Jews it does not matter.
New Jerusalem is yet to come and the world being destroyed by fire is yet to come.
193 AMorton // Oct 17, 2006 at 2:12 am
Charles, just to understand your thinking a little better, will you go into some detail how you are so sure there will be a third temple and that it has been prophecied? I would really appreciate you giving the scripture(s) from both the Old Testament and the NT, if you would please. This is not a challenge to you, but I really do believe when an assertion is made, like the ones of yours, then those assertions should easily be supported by Scripture.
Will you do that for us?
194 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 17, 2006 at 3:09 am
Charles
Israel never left Lebanon. It illegally occupies Shebba Farms since either the late 60s or early 70s. Israel controls the borders of most or all of Lebanon and all of the Pal. territory. Israel does many things to Pal and Lebanon that you never hear about, especially after 2000. Israel never left Gaza. Not really. Since 2000, after the settlements were dismantled, Israel still invades Gaza territory illegally. The Pals are not able to have any economy, education, or sustenance. Those people have been sick, starving, suffering and dying. Israel did not leave them to be free. They are still imprisoned by Israel.
195 Charles Wesley // Oct 17, 2006 at 3:25 am
Sure , let me take some time and go back through and get the scriptures and prepare my comment. I will talk to you tomorrow night .
A,Morton if I can prove my point what effect if any would it have on the return of Christ, salvation , tribulation, the Jews
or your personal relationship with God?
Whether the Jews are forgiven of their unbelief and sins or they remain as Gods chosen people ,His Elect is up to God.
The fact is that I do not know what will stop them from building the Temple except the Arabs. Do you?
196 Charles Wesley // Oct 17, 2006 at 3:33 am
I don’t blame them if they didn’t leave. Lebanon has been a staging ground for those Pals to hit nurseries and kill children back in the early years of Arafat. The same with Gaza!
Where are your loyalties
197 Victor Passenheim // Oct 17, 2006 at 9:30 am
Charles,
Regarding post #196. You’re asking that now? Didn’t you know all along where he was coming from. Doesn’t your spirit warn you inside, the Holy Spirit that lives within. So why continue to engage those who cling to lies?
198 AMorton // Oct 17, 2006 at 2:33 pm
from post 195
Yeah Charles, please take all the time you need - within reason :)
If you can prove your point it would have a huge affect on understanding and all the trickle down affects that come with it.
You say: Whether the Jews are forgiven of their unbelief and sins or they remain as Gods chosen people ,His Elect is up to God.
Really though, this is the whole disagreement. God’s elect are not the Jews. Or at least not Jews only. They must come to the Father the same as anyone does and that is through Christ only. The elect never have been Jews only but out of the Jews and out of the Gentiles come the elect. Even in our world today the elect are made up of all races of people. The criteria is belief on the Son of God. In the days of Moses the elcet were any who came into obiedience to the law and obiedience to the law was based on faith and faith had its origins in Abraham and Abrahams faith was faith based on the hope in Christ. The only Jews today who are the elect are those who have come to Christ Jesus in faith. There is no getting around that according to the Bible.
Victor, you may call these things lies, but you have yet to prove them as lies. You really have nothing to contribute as far as I am concerned.
Charles, the force that will stop the construction of a third temple are the Jews themselves. The Israel of today will never permit the construction of a temple. There is nothing to gain for them to endorse such a thing. Likewise, the attempts to do such a thing have been numerous throughout the centuries and each time God stopped it. What He call finished remains finished.
The requirements to resactify a temple can only be done by God. He sanctified it in the first place, He required specific things from the priesthood for the sanctification of the Temple and He had specific sacrificial requirements to maintain it. These things cannot be done again because Jesus was that substance that came to fulfill the shadow of the temple worship. Our worship is in Him alone.
If somehow the Jews were to accomplish the proper construction of a third temple then this in itself would be the abomination that causes desolation. No antichrist would be required to satisfy this. But see, this has already been done as well. The abomination of desolation was done upon the rejection and murder of Christ. I know of no other prophecy other than this one that Jesus spoke of.
I’ll be watching for you biblical responses.
199 Charles Wesley // Oct 18, 2006 at 4:16 am
Hi Victor
I ‘ve missed you.
200 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 18, 2006 at 9:51 am
The ‘Jewish’ population of Israel includes people from fifty countries, of different physical types, speaking different languages and practicing different religions (or no religion at all), defined as a single people based on the fiction that they, and only they, are descended from the Biblical Abraham.
It is so patently false that only Zionists and Nazis even pretend to take it seriously.
201 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 18, 2006 at 9:53 am
Yes Victor, you have been missed.
202 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 18, 2006 at 9:55 am
It is no coincidence. Israel wants the Palestinian uprising to go on. Israel wants not peace, but low intensity conflict. A war with Palestinians allows the Israeli leaders to keep their heterogeneous communities together, away from each other’s throat.
What is more important, the war allows the “Jewish” leaders over the world to continue their arduous task of reviving World “Jewry”, a medieval run-down construct. That is why it makes no sense to speak against ‘Violence’ and for ‘Peace’. As long as the supremacist “Jewish” state exists, it will ensure violence and avoid peace.
203 Victor Passenheim // Oct 18, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Charles,
Do yourself a favor and stop debating with people who simply refuse to accept the truth.
Charles, I’ve been to Israel and I’ve got to tell you they are a beautiful people. Do they have one of the most corrupt governments around. Absolutely! But despite all this, when you get a beat on the life of the people, you see how they have transformed the country they live in, and you get to know them a little better, it becomes clear that they are home and that God will continue to do great things through them. With that in mind, check out the following verses:
(courtesy of SidRoth.org)
Deuteronomy 9:1-6
Psalms 105:7-11 (a never-ending treaty and a commitment made to a thousand generations).
Psalm 135:12-14 (an inheritance, a special possession).
Psalm 147:1, 2 (look at how these 2 verses are put next to each other in symphony)
Isaiah 11:10-16 (clearly this one’s prophecy)
Isaiah 14:1 (are you one of the ’strangers’?)
Jeremiah 23: 7,8
Amos 9:14-15 (and the waste cities have been inhabited)
Zechariah 2:10-13 (the Lord says to the AMortons of the world: Shut up!).
Remember Zecheriah 2:8 and Genesis 12:3. This leads up to
Zecheriah 12:2-4
Zecheriah 14:16, 17
Okay, I think I’m done this time.
204 AMorton // Oct 18, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Victor, now I know where you truly get your ideas. It is not from the complete Bible but from Sid Roth - Yikes! Why not spend sometime in the NT for a while now and see for yourself - and not from Sid Roth - what Jesus and His disciples have to say about all your (Sid’s) false teaching? You may not know this, since you spend time with Sid Roth’s site, but the complete Bble is available today and you can probably pick one up at a good bookstore.
205 Charles Wesley // Oct 19, 2006 at 12:09 am
A. M No one can show you anything that you do not want to see.You have a problem that gets in your way of receiving the whole truth of God. Its called hate of the Jews or Israel. How does God feel about them? Lets take a look.
Ezekiel 38 The time of the manifestation of this prophecy is given
2 times as in the latter years verse 8 and latter days verse16. The Lord comes into the fray. With this in mind
Ezekiel 39 Verse 6 The Lord sends fire on Magog and them that dwell carelessly in the Isles. Now that has not happened yet.I believe it would make the history books don’t you?
verse 7 So I will make my holy name known in the midst of MY people ISRAEL: And the heathen shall know that I am the the Lord , the Holy One in ISRAEL.
Verse 27 The Lord gathers them out of their enemies land
Verse28 They know He is their Lord and he gathers them to their own land.
Verse 29 The Lord says ” Neither will I hide my face any more from them : for I have poured my spirit upon the house of ISRAEL” saith the Lord God.
Zechariah 14 speaks of the same event as Ezekiel speaks of except that Jesus stands on the mount of Olives and the mount splits to the North and South. Check your history on that one. Now the return of the Lord, armageddon , The Lord
sending fire on Magog and the others , the mountains of Israel falling down at the presents of the Lord, has not happened at all. So it is apparent to me that Ezekiel 39 verse 27, 28, & 29 are prophesy not yet fulfilled.
With this in mind I don’t believe that God has cast the Jews out. So why should you? The Jews still honor the Law , but that will end when Jesus comes back and they will receive Him. The Jews aren’t your concern . If they don’t deserve Gods mercy ,how about us. What did we do that was so great. How many times do you deny Jesus when we want to look at something, say something or do something that Jesus convicts us not to do?
There is so much more but I have lost interest in this blog .
And it would not make any difference.
Bye
206 Charles Wesley // Oct 19, 2006 at 12:11 am
Victor
I would like to visit your new sites .
207 AMorton // Oct 19, 2006 at 12:42 am
Charles, addressing your post 205. I do not hate the Jews nor anyone so that should settle that
I see no mention of the Jews in anything you posted in 205. This shows your lack of understanding as to who Israel is and who a Jew is.
You apply Ezek to a future event based on what? You simply have not looked at this outside of your pre-disposed mind. That is a problem when it comes to understanding your Bible. God cannot show you what is meant if you do not have His eyes instead of the eyes of your dispensational authors.
Yes, I think You said it well in the end.
“Bye”
208 Charles Wesley // Oct 19, 2006 at 3:41 am
I can see that you reject my verses out of hand, and did not even look at the content again because you have extracted what you want from them already. You are having the same issues on your own web site. I don’t know of anybody that subscribes to your views except the you know who’s . That should concern you. Anyway I guess you believe that Armageddon has happened so the Thousand year reign is over hundreds of years ago and then this must be hell .
Kinda looks like we missed the boat huh? NOT !
209 AMorton // Oct 19, 2006 at 4:24 am
I am not going to stoop to your level of insults, Charles. I have no idea who the “you know whos” are and that is a typical way with you to not explain yourself.
Only people who are Zionist and dispensationalists try to bring Ezekiel to a yet future time. This is careless and irresponsible exegesis. However, if you wish to explain in some detail how you have arrived at your way of thinking I am eager to wait, just as I have been waiting for you.
The trouble is, until you start believing Jesus and the inspired writers of the New Testament, you will remain in that little box you have placed your understanding in.
Tell you what, take any one of the articles on my website and tear it to pieces with refuted evidence, Make counter points and show your evidence. Just to say what someone believes is trash (or whatever word you want to use) without providing Scriptural proof to the contrary is just a whole lot of noise otherwise. Your trouble will be that you really don’t know your stuff well enough to do it. I will wait around and see if I am wrong about you.
210 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 19, 2006 at 7:25 am
Ze’ev Jabotinsky declared that settlement of the “land” is the only “law”. He declared:
“There is no justice, no law, and no God in heaven, only a single law which decides and supercedes all—- [Jewish] settlement [of the land].
211 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 19, 2006 at 8:34 am
Most Americans have forgotten the message from Jesus to the church.
“My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers. (Matthew 21:12-13)
In a more contemporary vein …
…. it is deeply disturbing to see Christian leaders joining hands across the centuries with their ancient counterparts, in order to validate a system of worship in which the house of God became a giant slaughterhouse, awash in the blood of its victims.
— J.R. Hyland
212 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 19, 2006 at 8:36 am
And the true spirit of Jesus was never more alive in its relevance today than it was in this passage ….
Jesus referred to the Temple as the “House of God” and called it a “House of Prayer,” not just for the Jews, but for all nations. When Jesus arrived with the mass of pilgrims, He overturned the tables and called it a den of thieves and a house of merchandise. The Temple was in some sense the national bank. It was a great public treasury with vaults containing immense stores of private wealth. These deposits never sat idle, but were loaned at high rates of interest. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote an account of the burning of the archives in Jerusalem and it gives an appalling picture of the incredible debts that were owed by the poor to the rich.
It is believed that the intention of the burning was to ‘destroy the money-lenders’ tallies and to prevent the exaction of debts. After reading about how an infuriated mob (around 30 years later) robbed the Temple booths and dragged the sons of Annas to their death, it can only be imagined how much the Jewish authorities were hated by the humble commoners.
213 Victor Passenheim // Oct 19, 2006 at 9:07 am
Charles,
I highly recommend:
israelnationanews.com (articles & radio programs in English)
memri.org (detailed track of goings on in the ME - very educational, many videoclips)
http://www.stangoodenough.com (another Christian’s perspective)
http://www.pmw.org.il/ (Palestinian Media Watch - nice hair raising stuff here)
Enjoy!
214 CALLIE // Oct 21, 2006 at 6:19 am
AMorton, Charles, or anyone else…..
Can you tell me the difference between the orthodox jews and the ultra orthodox jews? It seems to me the ultra orthodox jews want the Temple in israel to be built. Are the ultra jews like the christian zionists in that sense?
And what about the orthodox jews? Are they the ones that are like the neturai ketura - I don’t know that I spelled that right - anyway, are they the ones that are against israel even existing?
Well I heard that they are, but I was wondering if there are different kinds of orthodox jews, as well.
Charles and AMorton, I knew before long you both would be back to square one again. And who is Sid Roth?
And victor, who do you mean when you say the ‘you know whos’?? Why, Victor, are you being so secretive?
I am beginning to wonder, Victor, if you are a decent Christian at all! I am beginning to wonder…!
215 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 21, 2006 at 6:55 am
The Violent Take the Kingdom by Force
We have shown from the prophet Jeremiah that there were (and still are) two types of “figs” from the fig tree of Judah. There are good figs and evil figs. The good figs are those that peaceably submit to the judgment of God, and there are those who would rather fight and die (Jer. 24-30). This was true in Jeremiah’s day, and it was again true in Jesus’ day. Jesus said of these people in Matt. 11:12,
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, AND VIOLENT MEN TAKE IT BY FORCE.
Jesus denounced the Jewish belief that the Kingdom of God must be taken by violence and force. Forty years later, God brought judgment and captivity upon Judah, this time at the hand of Rome. It was all for the same reasons that we find in the writings of Jeremiah six centuries earlier.
One would think that the people would have learned, since they claimed to believe the writings of Moses and the prophets.
216 Victor Passenheim // Oct 21, 2006 at 7:21 am
Ooohhhh, I like being the ‘mystery’ man lol
217 AMorton // Oct 21, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Callie, it was Charles who would not make himself clear on the “you know whos”
Has far as the difference between one type of religious jew or another, I don’t have much expertise in that area. My position is that if a religious jew is outside of Christ then that religion the jew holds is worthless. God said to them through the NT writers, and to us by extension, if you do not know Christ and hold to His teachings then you do not know God.
We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but Christian Zionists believe that the Jew is exempt and will just be automatically forgiven without repentance. This is why they say that all Israel will be saved including all who have died within the last 2000 years withot ever having come to Christ.
This view of theirs is heresy to put it mildly.
218 CALLIE // Oct 21, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Victor,
in no way should you take what I said as a compliment! Also, you had better realize damn soon that what I meant by ‘mystery’ is that I really meant WILY, CUNNIING, DEVIOUS, DECEPTIVE. If you think that somehow you are regarded as some sort of romantic shadowy super hero (sic), you can just forget it! I can see that while you remain hidden by not posting that you are still reading our posts. However, I consider you a coward as you have whined much earlier about how some people on this blog are nitpicking about scripture. And obviously not too much to your liking! Face it, Victor, if we were nitpicking about scripture toward your way of thinking you would have been embracing us and welcoming us with gratitude. That some of us don’t want to read scripture to your way of believing is too damn bad for you! There is a whole world out there, Victor, and it doesn’t belong to you!
Charles, why don’t you ask Victor about the Holy Trinity?
Victor, how do you become a Christian with a name like ‘Passenheim’?
219 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 22, 2006 at 7:16 am
“At the Feast, the Jews were watching for Jesus and asking, ‘Where is the man?’ Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, ‘He is a good man’. Others replied, ‘No, he deceives the people.’ But no one would say anything publicly about him for fear of the Jews’.”
— John, 7:10-13
220 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 23, 2006 at 8:02 am
Indeed, Alfred Lilienthal (a “Jew”) understood what most Celto-Saxons do not: Many Christians have much more Hebrew-Israelite blood in their veins than do their modern self-styled “Jewish” neighbors.
221 Charles Wesley // Oct 24, 2006 at 2:01 am
Victor ,
I have been looking at sites on the Sanhedrin and the temple mount . It seems that the temple is going to be rebuilt per the Sanhedrin and the Orthodox Jews, Its just a matter of time, as they are preparing priest and temple rules are being researched and studied. The effort is moving forward as we speak.
222 AMorton // Oct 24, 2006 at 3:35 am
Charles, so when this doesn’t happen, what will be the next made up sign you will be looking for?
223 Charles Wesley // Oct 24, 2006 at 3:51 am
Victor, Did you hear something ? It sounded like words that someone will likely have to eat someday. I don’t guess that the Sanhedrin consulted somebody (special).
If America is The Great City Of Babylon we may not be concerned about that time any way.
224 CALLIE // Oct 24, 2006 at 9:00 pm
Charles,
I must say that A Morton has some valid points. Only because what I have been researching on my own seems to coincide with what he has said and some of his articles from his website.
Dear Charles, what will you do when these prophecies of yours do not come into fruition or - should I say - fall apart? Believe me, Charles I willl not dislike you or hate you, but your thinking and beiliefs are a bit off and even dangerous.
I know that you have told me time and time again how Jesus will take care of the Jews and that we need not worry. But isn’t that a bit fatalistic - even lazy - thinking on your part? Are you saying that what we should do us just stand aside and let things happen as they are?
What ever happened to the idea of Partnering with God? Should we not be as close to God as possible and should we not do what God would want us to do for the good of man, for the good of our nation, for the good of the world we live in?
Today, I don’t believe we are doing that. You probably hate Cindy Sheehan, don’t you Charles?
Well I love that woman and my heart goes with her every step of the way.
225 CALLIE // Oct 24, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Charles,
You can ignore me all you want. But I have been reading a lot of the blogs of Israeli people and I find most of them quite obnoxious as well as disturbing. It’s hard for me to believe that they are God’s Chosen.
NOW, what do you make of the fact that most of them think like this:
“You misunderstand what to be a Jew means. I am an atheist but I am still a Jew. To be a Jew means to be part of a tribe or hamula. I am Jewish because my mother who is also an atheist was Jewish. Just as you can marry into a tribe, you can convert to Judaism. Judaism was the way of life of a middle eastern tribe. It is a set of customs intertwined with a membership of a tribe. For example, the current cardinal of Paris, Lustiger, is Jewish because as a child he hid in a convent from the Nazi’s and became a catholic. You can be a Jew and a catholic or muslim. And of course you can be an atheist.”
Now those words from an israeli, above, makes absolutely NO SENSE to me at all. I cop- pasted this from an Israeli dialogue on a blog.
A Morton, what in Sam Hill is this creature talking about????
After reading that I have to wonder – This does not sound like God’s Chosen!
226 AMorton // Oct 25, 2006 at 12:14 am
Basically what this “Jewish” person is saying is that to be a child of God is of no importance but to be a Jew is everything. Of course he is wrong but that is what he is saying.
But then why wouldn’t he regard his jewishness highly, even if it makes no sense? He has been wined and dined and thought of as a highly prized individual by Christian Zionists for so long that he has begun to believe that load of crap.
The Bible makes it utterly clear that to be a jew or not is of no significance in our relationship to God. God is no respector of any race. God simply wants us to come to Christ as we are and grow in Him.
227 Charles Wesley // Oct 25, 2006 at 1:53 am
Just pretend that you never existed all of you. I’ll bet God can handle the situation all by his self, don’t you ? In fact as Israels big brother I believe that we are going to be taken out of the way so Israel will have only the Lord to keep them. Hebrews chpt.8 verse6 –on tells of Gods dealing with Israel and the house of Judah . Check the site http://www.templemount.org/sanhedrin/index.html where you will see the growing anticipation to get every thing ready to build and sanctify the temple. This includes the priest .
Check out the sites (the temple mount). Right or wrong its going to happen. The only thing that is holding it back is the Dome of the Rock that God put there to prevent Temple construction until he is ready .Think about it!
228 Charles Wesley // Oct 25, 2006 at 2:33 am
Some how the scriptures Romans Chapter 11 has been lost to you . All of you that contend to conclude that Israel ,those of the house of Judah from the appearance of Jesus until his return are cast away have not digested this chapter.
The Lord Jesus will come back to earth and those Jews that were blinded until the time of the Gentiles is full will receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour. If anybody is able to judge the Jews it would have to be the Lord not someone just as wretched as they are even today. Let him without sin cast the first stone. Remember the parable of the prodigal son and do a little soul searching . The Great MODERATOR is watching!!!
229 AMorton // Oct 25, 2006 at 2:46 am
“Check out the sites (the temple mount). Right or wrong its going to happen. The only thing that is holding it back is the Dome of the Rock that God put there to prevent Temple construction until he is ready .Think about it!”
THINK ABOUT WHAT, CHARLES? THINK THAT GOD IS GOING AGAINST HIMSELF TO SATISFY THE DESIRES OF A FEW FANATIC JEWISH PEOPLE WHO REJECT HIS SON - I HARDLY THINK SO.
230 AMorton // Oct 25, 2006 at 2:48 am
Concerning post 227
Charles you are simply reading it wrong.
231 Charles Wesley // Oct 25, 2006 at 3:13 am
How many times do you reject Jesus every day when you in-deed say ( get thee behind me Jesus) every time you do or say something that the Holy Spirit has convicted you not to do? Yes when some soul cuts you off on the highway or offends you in some way and you purposely break His main commandment to love one another and render a less than Christ like response. Are you arguing with the scriptures now? Will the world be destroyed with fire at the end of time?
232 Charles Wesley // Oct 25, 2006 at 3:31 am
How about the 144000 VIRGIN JEWISH MEN that will spread the Gospel in Revelations 7 and 14. Who are they and who are they witnessing to? And when in the time scheme does this happen? Or am I also reading this wrong too!
233 CALLIE // Oct 25, 2006 at 5:54 am
Thank you A Morton for explaining.
234 CALLIE // Oct 25, 2006 at 5:57 am
Charles,
Good luck rounding up 144,000 jewish virgin men. Most of them are atheists in israel, as I have been trying to tell you, and I doubt that any of them are virgins.
235 CALLIE // Oct 25, 2006 at 9:50 am
Look what I found:
Special Privileges for ADL/B’nai B’rith
ADL clearly has a different standard which applies to “synagogue and state” versus “church and state.”
ADL is accustomed to massive legislative or judicial victories, such as Roe v. Wade,
banning school prayer,
ending public display of the Ten Commandments,
banning Christmas displays,
crosses in public, etc.
But let Christians defeat ADL, such as is happening right now with the collapse of ADL’s hate legislation in Congress, and that is a different matter.
When that happens, ADL’s Foxman, sharing the podium of the ADL conference with government representatives such as FBI director Robert Mueller III and John Bolton, cries “Foul!”
What does the ADL consider a normal state of affairs?
Simple.
Christians should continue to do what they do best: unconditionally support Israel morally, militarily, and financially.
They should also receive ADL legislative, judicial, and media batterings devoid of understanding of who is actually assaulting them.
ADL should continue to trash Christian values and symbols, dominating government and media, and silencing all opposition by threatening to label its opponents anti-Semitic.
===============
So I see that Joyce was wrong.
What does this mean Charles? I knew I read somewhere that jews were trying to ban christmas, the saying of “Merry Christmas”, and bible prayer!
Well, Charles? To me, this does not make anything right about temples, rapture, tribs, and so on.
Are you trying to tell me that Jesus is supposed to get so mad at the jews and then allow them to rule the world?
This makes no sense at all!
236 Joyce // Oct 25, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Callie,
I have been trying to stay out of these discussions,because I believe they are a waste of time. You can’t help someone, that doesn’t want help. But, as far as me being wrong,I’m not sure what you are talking about. Do you deny the fact about Mrs.O’Hare? Because, they are documented facts look them up. Whether she was involved, with the ADL / B’nai B’rith I don’t know. But, irregardless of that, she was the one responsible, for the Bible and prayer taken out of the schools. And as far as the ADL / B’nai B’rith I never said one way or the other, about their involvement. So, I don’t really understand what you are saying.
237 CALLIE // Oct 25, 2006 at 9:42 pm
Dear Joyce,
My apologies,
You are indeed right! I was very stupid to say you were wrong.
Yes, Madolyn O’Hare DID try to get bible study taken out of the class rooms. I don’t know why I didn’t find that out first.
Again, Joyce, sorry for the trangression and I’m very sorry.
========
But my information is absolutely correct about the jewish organization I mentioned above. I do not know that there are any connections between O’Hare and B’nai B’rith, and there very well may be no connections as far as I’ve been able to see. So my sources on ADL / B’nai B’rith and remain FACT. For anyone can look that up and find this to be true about those organizations wanting to put a damper on the Christmas Season and Removing Bible Study from schools.
==================
I did some reading up on this O’hare female, and she was just wicked and vile. No wonder her son turned against her - and rightly so!
It is interesting to point out that her first husband was a jew. Maybe she got her atheist tendencies from him.
But, there is no mention of this from some of the sources I found.
They divorced and her first son came from an adulterous affair with a married Catholic man.
Quite interesting reading about such a hateful, disgusting female as this O’hare freak.
Truly, I was foolish, Joyce, for jumping to the wrong conclusion about your correct information. Next time, I will be much more thorough about checking facts.
Bless you, dear.
238 Joyce // Oct 25, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Callie,
There are a couple of things, I’d like to ask you that are confusing to me. Are you a Christian? Because, the way you were bashing Christians, I was’nt sure. And also are all the atheists Jews? Because, I happen to know one,. and he is not Jewish. All races have atheists. But that does’nt mean we should condemn the whole race. Think about it.
239 Charles Wesley // Oct 25, 2006 at 11:34 pm
The nature of the Jews is a very peculiar one. First off they are by nature a very clannish people . If you aren’t Jewish they will generally shun you. They do not regard other ancestries with respect. They also would not share their religious customs with outsiders . God chose them and he saw them as his beloved people and brought our Saviour out of their fathers. On the other hand the Jews have turned to other pagan idols and God has punished them time and time again . The fact is if the Jews had received Jesus as Lord
they would have selfishly kept Him to their selves and the Gentiles would not have been told the Gospel . This is most probably the reason that the Jews were blinded until the time of the Gentiles is full . They are a peculiar people and to this day they are blinded to Jesus and that is why they are against anything that has to do with Him. Also their stingy
clannish ways makes them think that God is theirs and not for you to degrade with your worship. That is why they were Blinded (Romans 11 v. 8) and the Gentile was called to Faith. But, God has not cast them away (Romans 11) .
Romans 10v. 4 “For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth” TO EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVETH would exclude the Jews. Why? Because (God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see , and ears that they should not hear:) unto this day. Now why would God do that if the Jews were not Going to receive Jesus ? Why not destroy them off the face of the earth? Because he is not finished with them ! As far as who the 144000 is, they are not Jehovah’s witnesses as they claim. They are of the 12 tribes of Israel redeemed the first fruits of God . They are not still on this earth. These most likely were those male children 2 or so years of age or younger that Herod the great had killed trying to eliminate the new King of the Jews (JESUS) whom he thought might someday unseat him . A key note (without guile in their mouth) to me indicates that they were killed before they could form their own opinions. This would be mean that they would have only the Lords opinion when spreading the Gospel.
240 Charles Wesley // Oct 26, 2006 at 12:02 am
The doctrin of the Jehovahs Witness is not Christian doctrin.
In fact it is against the Bible.
241 CALLIE // Oct 26, 2006 at 12:53 am
Good Lord, Joyce, where have you been?
What kind of question are you asking me? Of course I am a Christian. Heck, I believe I’m more Christian than Victor could ever hope to be or is pretending to be!
I am a Catholic. And let me say, that I don’t undestand the question as I have been talking about my dismay, and anger over bible study taken out of public schools!
No, I am not a Jehovah Witness, Charles, as you seem to be alluding to that opinion- AGAIN!
Once again, Charles, it seems to me that when no one is in keeping with your views you begin to put labels on people. As if people shouldn’t have opinions, views, or questions about beliefs of others.
So don’t get fancy with that Jehovah Witness nonsense, Charles!
There are a good many CHRISTIANS who are not happy with what is going on with the wars in afghanistan and iraq! That does not make them or myself - UN-CHRISTIAN!
I just told you how I embraced and loved Cindy Sheehan and her cause. And I support that great woman 100%. She lost her son in a useless, greedy war, and I don’t blame her for standing up against the government. Good for her.
Does that make me an Atheist? HARDLY!
No Joyce I didn’t mean to say that all Jews become atheists and that all atheists are Jews. However, we are on the topic of them so naturally they are in the spotlight.
I am aware of Christians who have lost their faith or are born with no faith who are or become atheists. I am aware there are other people of other faiths who lose their path to God, and therefore question the existence of God - therefore, they become atheists.
My whole big problem with israel is that I am beginning to believe that is a place based on false belief.
Now Charles keeps saying it over and over that the jews shunned Jesus for our salvation. In other words the Jews did not want to keep Jesus to themselves and did US a big favour.
I have a very big problem with that! Sounds to me like we are apologizing for and excusing terrible sins of a people that we have know right to do. Not if they keep on sinning! God did not send Jesus down so that the jews could mock HIM and taunt HIM and then MURDER HIM. God sent Jesus down for a reason. They were sinning. He tried to teach them and they wouldn’t listen. They threw God’s gift back in His face - AGAIN.
To me, not accepting the Lord Jesus, the Virgin Birth of Mother Mary, that He is God’s Son is a great SIN!
Joyce, I suggest you go up and read all of my posts. Where on earth did you get the idea that I was BASHING CHRISTIANS?? I was DEFENDING Christians.
I was getting very disenchanted with Victor, for he was the one doing the Christian-bashing, not I. Go on up and look.
242 AMorton // Oct 26, 2006 at 2:13 am
Callie, I hate to leave you stranded here, but the discussions have gone around in circles about 40 times already and I see no reason to go around again. I will be available at undergodproductions.com or at livebytruth.com
243 Joyce // Oct 26, 2006 at 4:01 am
Callie,
What I was referring to, is how you criticize Christians, for backing Israel, since this is what God expects from us. And I do believe, that if we don’t continue to back Israel, that God will not bless this country. And he will punish us for it. And if, you are having a hard time believing this, then you should read your Bible the King James Version. All other versions, seem to think they have to explain, the Bible to you. But, all you need to do, is ask God to help you to understand it, and he will help you. You don’t need man to explain it for you.Because, that’s what those other versions do.
244 Charles Wesley // Oct 26, 2006 at 5:06 am
It would seem that you and A M have a disability in reading and understanding a statement written out so that a child can understand it. As for the Jews slumbering GOD made that decision for them. It would seem also that the both of you shop the Bible for bits and pieces to support your position which you will never change. The teacher certainly not admit to the students that he is wrong . Jesus himself could not
convince some people . It amazes me how both of you are down on Jews . What makes you such a prize .The devil knows who Jesus is ,Jesus needs no recognition by us to
make Him the Lord. So what have you done that is remarkably different from the Jews. The Jews were Blinded and were used as an instrument to do the will of God and fulfill the prophesy concerning Jesus. This was Gods plan from the time of Abraham . The crucifiction was Gods plan to offer the acceptable sacrifice for sin , His Son. The Jews were chosen for this also. They had to bear the burden of all the world in this matter as well . Being still yet blinded by God about Jesus , they still think that they were right in what occurred on Calvary . The world has crucified them for what God had determined for them to do. No one took Jesus ’s life He gave his life freely . You, yes You caused Jesus to be crucified . You killed Jesus ! And every one that called on his name ,and believes that He is the Son Of God ,born of a virgin, died on the cross for YOUR sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day and ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of God . The instrument of his death is not the Authority that guided its path . How do you feel about
being an accomplice to the death of Christ ? Now, what is it that makes you so special ? The answer , Grace So why do you want to deny the Jews a chance to accept Jesus
when He returns. Judge as you will be Judged .
245 AMorton // Oct 26, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Yikes! Who here is denying anyone the chance to come to Christ? You make no sense at all with your arguements, Charles. I think you just like seeing you incoherent words in print.
246 CALLIE // Oct 26, 2006 at 8:46 pm
What do you mean by saying the Jews had to bear the burden of the world, CHARLES????!!!
Which Jews are you talking about???
There is only one kind! And it certainly isn’t that Wolfowitz or Gillerman kind. How come they don’t live in israel??? (Shouldn’t they belong to the 144,000?)
THat type is a huge heavy burden to this world. And those atheist who claim to be jews - and they really aren’t jews so who is fooling who - so they can get huge discounts on land and home and other lucratives in israel. If that is there reason to say they are jews then they are blasphemous creatures, imposters.
Our boys and girls are dying everyday in iraq and afghanistan and for what? so fake jews can build a temple? I am every bit a Christian as I love the Lord Jesus and I love my neighbor and I will not go the ways of deception of falsehoods which are the tools of Satan and I know in my heart THat Jesus God will love me for my heart is true and whole, therefore I love my neighbor, I do not slight, slander, nor kill my neighbor, so God loves me as I am, as the BIBLE TELLS ME SO.
Charles! Where on EARTH do you get the notion that I am denying the jews to come to Jesus!?!?
Seems to me they are doing that very well on their own!
247 CALLIE // Oct 26, 2006 at 8:58 pm
Well alright Joyce let them back israel.
They have for decades and decades. That’s why I was angry with Victor. He says Christians aren’t doing enough.
THe Nerve and gall! Christians are dying in afghanistan and Iraq! Lots of blood spilled for israel!
Joyce, don’t you know that an American has already drawn up the constitution in Iraq and it is very favorable to the United States of America? USA is getting their oil might cheap compared to oil they would get in Saudi Arabia. In Canada, forget it. While Albertra is humming with oil, their oil sings to the tune of about 11.00 or 12.00 dollars a barrel.
Forgive me, I don’t know if that translate in Can or US dollars. The Iraq oil is by far the cheapest at about a dollar or two a barrel.
We are practically ripping off iraq!
That’s beside the point. The point is our sons and daughters need to be home and not getting killed.
Did you know that Bush has said that our sons and daughters will be in iraq until 2009? That is unacceptable to me! Now don’t you dare tell me we haven’t done enough for israel, we have done plenty! We have died for israel over and over again. israel should be on its knees thanking christian folk for they would not be existing without us - NO POSSIBLE WAY!
248 CALLIE // Oct 26, 2006 at 9:01 pm
JOyce,
If we are being lied to then how can God punish us?
249 AMorton // Oct 27, 2006 at 12:35 am
Like you, Joyce its hard to stay away and let wrong information go unchallenged. In your post # 242 you made the claim that God expects us to back Israel. I find nowhere in the Bible saying this. God does not say to back national Israel nor to back the Jews. He did say to Abraham as he was about to engage the peoples of the earth at that time that God would bless those who blessed Abraham. Maybe this is where you are gett confused. I have heard this misquoted time after time by over zealous Christian Zionist. And then they say that who know otherwise are not reading our Bibles. I say - if the shoe fits…
Concerning the correct Bible version, they are all inaccurate to one degree or another. I have often wondered what the early Christians used before the KJV came out? Actually they had men teaching them as well (what a shock - men teaching God’s Word). I have also heard people say that God has shown me this and that but in fact it wasn’t God at all but their own deep desire to make what they have been taught show up in the Bible.
I would lay odds, Joyce that your worldview on Israel and end times prophecy was not something that originated with you and your personal study but rather what was taught to you such as the rapture, the coming of the Lord, the one taken and the other left, this generation, the seven year tribulation the binding of Satan, the 1000 years, and on and on. Its all talking points from the same eschatological group and not because it is what you have read in the Bible.
I was once caught up in the same view as you, Joyce but once I started studying the Bible for myself and quit listening to the views of people like Ryan Jones and Stan Goodenough and Bob Westbrook, I was set free and my eyes have been opened. I have been blessed to become aquainted with a wonderfully accurate Bible teacher and a very humble one at that. He lets the Bible speak for itself and lets Scripture interpret Scripture. His name is Steve Gregg and is the author of the book “Revelation - Four Views: A Parallel Commentary” He takes no profit from the sale of the book and seels it at cost through Amazon.com
His website is http://thenarrowpath.com and I feature much of his audio material on my website.
But I have told others about this but most want nothing to do with truth because it will disrupt their comfort zone.
250 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 2:34 am
The issue of the inspiration of the Bible, especially when linked to the King James Version, is often twisted in the society in which we live to portray anyone who disagrees with the inspiration of the King James Version as being a modernist, atheistic, humanist antichrist.
Often, those who misuse the issue of inspiration, either knowingly or ignorantly posture themselves as being the only ones who believe in the inspiration of God’s Holy Word and present themselves as the true defenders of the faith.
Moreover, it is very important for people to understand that those who seek to defend the King James with its more than 20,000 admitted errors are also defending the inspiration of the Masoretic text or the so-called Hebrew Old Testament, for there is not a Queen James published that does not include as its Old Testament the Talmudic Jewish so-called Old Testament.
251 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 2:36 am
The Queen James or Judeo School of Theology will seek to write paragraphs that we can all agree with in the defense of the Queen James New Testament, for there are few of us raised in Western Society who do not cherish the flowing and beautiful Elizabethan and poetic language of Shakespeare, but these same men who cater to our love of the English language never bother to address the real issues involved in their defense of the King James Version.
Though Western society has placed the Jew above the Scriptures that Christ recognized, and although they have seated the atheist in the very Bishop’s seat of the churches and made Him the authority over Western religious thought and theology, the Jew, whose Father the Devil was a liar from the beginning, never answers his groveling worshipers who debase themselves before him with any truth, for the Jew is not interested in truth.
He is an atheist, for he rejected the God of the Old Testament and the final revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
252 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 2:58 am
AMorton,
You might want to read post 242 again. I never said those exact words, about Christians backing Israel were in the Bible. But the verses in Romans chap.11, tells me everything I need to know, about how God feels about Israel, and how he expects us to feel about them. It does’nt take a genius to understand that. He makes his feelings about the subject quite plain. I don’t see how he can explain it any better. And, as far as your opinion on how, I feel about Israel, and the end times, it is wrong, I read and study my Bible, every day. And, as far as the Bible itself is concerned I believe, that no one should change God’s words. I believe, that if you study, and ask for God’s help, that you will understand his words. To me using those other versions is just being lazy. And, asfar as, the rapture is concerned, it is called the harvest not the rapture, and that is in Rev. chap.14 verse14. And also about the one taken and the other left Matt. 24 verse 40 ,41.
Rev. 20 verse 2 Satan bound for a thousand years, ect. So now, if you will actually read these verses, maybe you will learn something. And, about those people you were talking about, I have never read any of their books. But, it seems like to me, what you were accusing me of, you are doing yourself, with this Steve Gregg. If you want to believe, his false doctrin over God’s words, that’s your business but, don’t expect me to !!
253 AMorton // Oct 27, 2006 at 3:34 am
Joyce, here is what you said: “What I was referring to, is how you criticize Christians, for backing Israel, since this is what God expects from us.” How do you know if God is expecting this if not from the Bible? My point was and still is that God has never put this on us concerning the Jew but we are to treat all people like we would want to be treated. Why would you select only the Jew and say God expects this?
254 AMorton // Oct 27, 2006 at 3:35 am
Joyce, in Romans 11, who is Paul saying Israel is? You seem to be missing the whole point of Chapters 9-11
255 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 3:45 am
Callie,
I don’t understand, where you get that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, is about the Jews. I do believe we have our own reasons for the wars. I know that you would like to blame the Jews for all the worlds problems. You make yourself quite clear on the subject. It’s odd, how you never blame the radical Muslims, for anything. Have you forgotten 9/11 already? And, as far as God, punishing us if we don’t support Israel, I believe that he will. Because, I do believe that he expects us, to depend on the Bible for our information about Israel, and not our politicians.
256 AMorton // Oct 27, 2006 at 3:46 am
Joyce, you went on to say in Post 251: ” I believe, that if you study, and ask for God’s help, that you will understand his words.”
Obviously this is not totally working for you. I am glad you did get the simple teachings of the Gospel and have Christ as your Savior, but you are somewhat off on that. But you are not alone if there is any comfort in that.
I also wonder why you call Steve Gregg a false teacher? Can you give me an example of that? Do you even know Steve Gregg? He is a good teacher and is proficient in the Word. I think you should be careful concerning the bearing of false witness against someone if you do not know that person.
On the other hand I know the three I spoke of and they love the Lord but they are dangerous in their teachings.
257 AMorton // Oct 27, 2006 at 3:53 am
BTW Joyce, I never said Ryan, Stan or Bob wrote books. I guess you do not know them. Ryan is the owner of this website you are on now, Stan is the owner of StanGoodenough.com and Bob is the owner of Trumpetsounds.com and maybe you will want to agree with them but I would watch it if I were you. If you believe that the Gospel of Christ should be preaced to all the world, then you will not agree with these three men because they say the Jew will get saved outside of the Gospel and they would never offer Christ to a Jew for fear of offending that Jew. You tell me, is this what God has in mind?
258 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 4:17 am
AMorton,
Is this supposed to be a test or can’t you read for yourself? I am not your student and you are not my teacher. You seem, to always want answers from everyone, but you never give any yourself. Paul says, that he is also an Israelite,of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. So what’s your point? And, if you happen to answer me, be sure you back it up by scripture from the Bible. And not by Steve Gregg !
259 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 4:24 am
Even though Erasmus was a Catholic, it was the Protestants who used his text for translation. The Catholics believe in the divine inspiration of the Vulgate and the infallibility of the Pope, and therefore, anything that contradicts it is utterly evil. This is the same stance being taken today by supporters of the King James Version.
For some mysterious reason known only to Queen James herself, the Textus Receptus and the King James Version are divinely inspired and anything that contradicts them are to be relegated as spurious. The question that must be asked of the King James defenders is, “Exactly why is the King James inspired?”
The doctrine that the King James is inspired was in large part started because it was “Authorized” by the Throne of England. However, this is not entirely true. The translation was originally commissioned by King James, who was a notorious homosexual and antichrist.
The famous “Authorization” was given so the book could be printed. A Bible could not be printed in England unless it received authorization from the Crown. This was not an endorsement or sponsorship, it was a license. And the King James Version was not the first to be “Authorized.” In 1539, the Great Bible, which was also commissioned by the Crown, was released as an “Authorized Version.”
260 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 4:31 am
Therefore, the idea that the King James is inspired because it was authorized by the Throne of England is ridiculous for two reasons.
First, the King James is not the only translation to be authorized by the Throne of England; and secondly, the idea is based upon the even more ridiculous British-Israeli idea that the Throne of England is the true descendant of David’s Throne and therefore all the actions of the Kings of England, including the homosexual King James, were divinely inspired.
By implication, defenders of the King James Version also believe that homosexuality has also now been approved by God since the actions of the homosexual King James were approved and since the King James Version does not contain the word homosexual, even though the word is clearly in the New Testament twice.
261 Nathan // Oct 27, 2006 at 4:46 am
How can you really be sure?
“First, the King James is not the only translation to be authorized by the Throne of England; and secondly, the idea is based upon the even more ridiculous British-Israeli idea that the Throne of England is the true descendant of David’s Throne and therefore all the actions of the Kings of England, including the homosexual King James, were divinely inspired.”
262 Charles Wesley // Oct 27, 2006 at 5:05 am
A.M. is Steve Gregg an apostle of Jesus? Just what makes you so sure that he is right ? If you cannot read the bible yourself how can you be sure that he can? Many cults read the bible the way that makes their outlandish points take life .
You have disallowed parts of the bible that tells you that God has not cast away the Jews . The only way that you can do this is to reject the word of God telling you this. You have been predisposed to this end . Do you honor the Lords words over Steve’s word . How can people use the bible and come up with some off the wall things to start a group ? Well a good lie requires a good portion of truth to make it seem plausible . You have never said anything for the Jews
and supported Esau and Callie when they questioned the true ancestry of Jesus . No deception there. The reason that I believed that you were a Jehovah’s Witness is because you share the same mannerisms of conducting a discussion .
I am sure that you know that you are right and do not need to check your self. I guess the Jews wern’t the only ones blinded . Oh I supposed that you asked Ryan if you could move his blog site to your website .
263 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 5:15 am
We hear men commit the blasphemy of calling Abraham a Jew or Jesus Christ a Jew. This is the sin and failure of the mongrelized mind, for to make such statements is to fail to recognize the scripturally stated difference between the Government of the Israel of God and the Government of Judea.
Not only do such men ignore the evidence of their own Bible by failing to read the books of Kings, but they also fail to read the truth of history, and by their failure, they sustain and cause the establishment of Judeo theological assumptions, which is the grossest perversion of truth, whether the truth of the Bible or the truth of history.
Such men, who help make a lie in spite of the light of truth, are fighting against the Spirit of Truth. They are blasphemers in the highest order.
They are those who help make a lie and they add to and take away from the Word of the Living God. They are described in the New Covenant as those who twist the Scriptures unto their own damnation.
They are not Christians, for no Christian can wantonly and knowingly stand in the face of truth, in the very face
of God, and shake his fist at God and call Him a liar.
Such men are the enemies of God. They are the twice-
dead children of Hell and worthy of death. They are the enemies of all just and decent men. Judeo theological
assumptions, predicated upon false witness, are Judaized, apostate Christianity.
264 Charles Wesley // Oct 27, 2006 at 5:18 am
You know I realy have to agree with Victor , I feel an EVIL presence on this site . Let your master call your names . But
my Master call me away from this site for it is inhabited with evil !
265 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 5:22 am
There is no sound argument for the inspiration of the King James Version or the Textus Receptus and certainly not the Masoretic Text.
Many argue that the King James is not necessarily inspired but that it is the best translation and the easiest to understand. Obviously these people have not read the literal Anointed Standard Translation.
If the KJV is the best translation, why then does it not contain the word homosexual?
Newer translations like the New International Version do contain the word, but these translations are lambasted by supporters of the King James. Perhaps these supporters of the King James really are trying to argue that homosexuality is okay.
And as for the King James being easy to understand, nothing could be further from the truth. Those who study the King James must develop a specialized vocabulary of archaic English or already be a Shakespearean scholar.
Finally, defenders of the King James and/or the Textus Receptus say that we must accept these texts on their Judeo interpretation of the word faith.
But again, the question arises, Why should we accept these texts out of many thousands of other translations and Greek manuscripts on faith and not the others?
Why should we accept a translation that is self-contradictory and a Greek manuscript that has admitted man-made interpolations?
266 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 5:29 am
It is blasphemy, and it matters not who tells the lie, for the product of a lie is the destruction of the Christian
State.
So-called Judeo Christianity, predicated upon
the blasphemous lies of Judeo theology, is nothing but an extension of Talmudic philosophy and the theories of
Jewish sociology.
No amount of phony rituals or perverted religion can begin to justify blasphemy of the doctrines and teachings of Jesus Christ.
To call Jesus Christ a Jew is to call Him a Canaanite and an Edomite. To call Jesus Christ a Jew is to accuse Him of teaching the Babylonian Talmud. To call Jesus Christ a Jew is to belittle and trodden under foot the precious blood of the Lamb of God.
267 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 27, 2006 at 5:38 am
“But seek His Government, and all these things will be added to you. Do not fear, little flock, for your Father was pleased to give you the Government. Sell your possessions, and
give alms. Make for yourselves purses that do not grow old, an unfailing treasure in the heavens, where a thief cannot approach, nor can moth corrupt. For where your treasure is,
there also your heart will be”(Luke 12:31-34 AST).
268 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 6:28 am
AMorton,
If Steve Gregg, is teaching from the word of God, I stand corrected. But, if he’s not, it’s not me saying that it’s false doctrine, I’m just quoting the Bible. All, I have to go by, are your belief’s. And, we disagree about that. You have your belief’s, and I have mine. So be it !
269 CALLIE // Oct 27, 2006 at 6:32 am
I don’t believe it. I just don’t. I don’t believe it is right for all this killing to go on as it has been. Joyce, do you not watch the news?
Just because of what happened to us on 9/11 does not make it right to murder another people’s children and thereby ruining and losing the lives of our own children.
Something is very wrong there.
afganistan and iran have alot to do with israel. Haven’t you heard of the pipeline from turkey to israel? israel needs a pipe underground for all kinds of natural resources coming from turkey. can’t be done without the use of land from lebanon, iraq, and afganistan. THere are most definitely motives for israel regarding those two countries.
I say, isn’t there a better way? Why so damn sneaky and evasive and why do so many of our children have to be murdered for israel?
I never said the jews were the problems for ALL the world, I assuredly never said that.
All I am saying that OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS DO NOT NEED TO DIE FOR MONEY, OIL, GAS, A PIPELINE, AND OTHER NATURAL RESOURCES FOR A FEW GREEDY GOVERNMENT PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY AND FOR ISRAEL.
I am sick and tired of hearing the words - we do not do enough for Israel! THat’s a lie!. And Joyce, do you not care about our children dying in the middle east???
THeir blood for other people’s wealth??
I’m angry and sick and tired!
Did you not watch Bob Woodward on Larry King???
270 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 6:49 am
As, for the rest of this garbage that’s being stated, I believe, I have to agree with Charles, about feeling the presence of evil. And, all I have to say about that is” GET THE BEHIND ME SATAN” !!
271 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 7:03 am
Callie,
I’m going to tell you, what I told AMorton, we both have our own belief’s, I disagree with you, and you disagree with me. But, that’s okay, that’s what America is all about. The freedom to have our own belief’s.
God bless you.
272 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 7:39 am
Callie,
There is one thing, we agree on, I do care, about our children dying. I don’t like war, anymore than you do. It breaks my heart, every time I hear, about one of our soldiers dying. I pray to God every night, that this war will end.
God bless.
273 AMorton // Oct 27, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Joyce of post 257
I never called you my student, so that makes no sense for you to say it.
I have demonstrated scripture proof but I guess you never saw it.
Charles of your post 261
That is just a stupid thing to say “Oh I supposed that you asked Ryan if you could move his blog site to your website .
”
Do you think this is my website? How in the world did you come up with the idea that I moved this blog to my website? You make no sense.
274 CALLIE // Oct 27, 2006 at 6:39 pm
Thank you for your blessings Joyce. Blessings to you also.
I don’t like you less or think less of you for your beliefs. I sense that you are a very good person.
I keep my eyes on Jesus. In perfect love I ask for guidance. I do not ask for guidance on men’s doctrine, but in God’s Wisdom. I ask and I pray for discernment and PEACE. I know that love will bring me through. Love will bring all of us through.
Everyday I ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit about the true meaning of the end of times, and what I should do.
I suggest everybody study the “Jonestown Incident” of our recent history.
We could all learn valuable lessons from that!
275 CALLIE // Oct 27, 2006 at 6:43 pm
A Morton,
I know you keep wanting to leave this place, but I beckon you to try to answer a few questions.
What on God’s Green Earth does Charles mean by 144,000 virgin jews????
Are they to be ascended to the heavens because they are virgins, these jews?
Sounds mighty peculiar.
276 CALLIE // Oct 27, 2006 at 6:51 pm
Oh really Charles, this sight is inhabited with evil?
Many things that I do not understand, many things I don’t agree with, especially where Victor is concerned - whining about the lack of integrity of Christians! Many things I find peculiar, but in NO WAY have I considered this place subjected to evil!
Good grief Charles! Are you a scaredy cat because of Esau? - or me? - or AMorton?
That’s just plain NONSENSE!
277 AMorton // Oct 27, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Callie, yes I would like to be done with this blog topic, and maybe I will soon, but I also want to answer your questions. Charles is off base concerning the 144000 mostly because he is off concerning the time frame of Revelation. This is what happens when one does not follow the time element. I will go into greater detail for you later tonight (my time) but for now I want to give Charles some fodder. Revelation was given to John before 70AD and John wrote the things Christ gave Him concerning the Churches at that time. Much was neccessary to become ready for before the tribulation that was about to befall them. In fact the tribulation had already begun and John was one of the victims of it. John was told by Jesus that the time was near and John spoke to the chuches saying: “I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,…”
Did anybody else catch that? John admidts to being a companion in the tribulation. Now that is pretty straight forward and literal, so why don’t the other brothers and sisters here see that.
Jesus also said it this way: “for the time is near”. Jesus did not say: for the time is 2000 years away but near.
This is evidence from the very first chapter and it gets better in the next 4 and all the way through chapter 20. These can not be refuted without making it apply to your own presupposition. Dispensationalist try to make it be for our generation but the Bible does not teach what they believe. Isn’t that too bad? But that is the way they think. Its funny to me that they want to claim they take the Bible literal but then when it certainly is literal they then say: “Oh no, that is not what it means.
The other factor concerning the writing of Revelation is that there is a division amongs scholars as to when it was written. Sadly nobody has clear evidence except by what the Bible indicates in other NT writhings. So when it comes down to it, I will stand with what the inspired writers say and not what the dispensationalists say.
This is just a little background and I will get to your initial question later.
278 Joyce // Oct 27, 2006 at 11:13 pm
AMorton,
I didn’t, say that you said, that I was your student. I simply, made the remark about that, because, you sounded like, you were giving me a quiz, with your questions. I was being sarcastic. I guess, I thought that would have been, obvious to figure out. Sorry.
Esau,
What difference does it make, whether or not, the actual word homosexual, was used in the KJV or not? The subject is still mentioned in the book of Romans chap.1 verses 26,27&28. And, as far as, people saying that KJV is easy to understand, there are verses, that I can understand, without any help. But, there is a lot of them, that I need God’s help with. So, that’s why I pray, and ask for his help, and guidance, to understand his words.
God bless you all.
279 Joyce // Oct 28, 2006 at 1:31 am
Callie,
Isn’t that funny, I’ve been thinking about the Jonestown incident myself. I guess, that something else that we agree on.
God bless.
280 Charles Wesley // Oct 28, 2006 at 3:46 pm
You moved this blog topic to ( undergodproductions.com) and that is your site . That constitutes another omission in your ministry .
281 Joyce // Oct 28, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Esau,
Did it ever occur to you, that the word homosexual might be a newer term ? So that when the Bible was written, it wasn’t a word yet . And also, the statement that you made about supporters of the KJV, being supporters of homosexuality, is one of the most idiotic statements I have ever heard !
282 Allyn // Oct 28, 2006 at 7:46 pm
Charles, you are one mixed up litttle dude.
283 Allyn // Oct 29, 2006 at 5:13 am
Callie, I am sorry I took so long to get back to you concerning the 144,000 of Rev. 14. These are the First Fruits of the new Christian age of the Church they are the Jewish believers who came to know Christ as savior. They are called virgins not having been defiled by women which represents the fact that they did not join in with the soon to be destroyed Jerusalem which was the Mystery Babylon which prostituted itself against the righteousness of God.
The key for the timing is the title First Fruits. they were the first of the coming harvest dedicated to the Lord. They were the ones we can thank for bringing the Gospel of Christ to the Gentiles.
284 Rod Serling // Oct 30, 2006 at 3:28 am
The Twilight Zone could have used you puppies in one of the episodes. There is a about three of you that could reach beyond the fifth dimension . Im sure the nurse will be around with your medication soon . Keep the faith or lack there-of .
285 AMorton // Oct 30, 2006 at 3:52 am
Yeah Rod, ole dead buddy Charles, Joyce and Victor are a kick.
286 Charles Wesley // Oct 30, 2006 at 6:00 am
Not so, I am very much alive and saved . Or did that have another meaning?
287 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 30, 2006 at 6:54 am
Welcome Rod Serling we have been expecting you….
288 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 30, 2006 at 6:57 am
Two former chief rabbis of Israel, Avraham Shapira and Mordechai Eliahu, have approved a ruling urging followers not to accept money from thechristain zionist groups, warning that their ultimate intent is conversion of Jews. Christian Zionists believe that during the Last Days, Jews must either accept Jesus as the Messiah or perish.
289 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 30, 2006 at 7:01 am
Other Christians in the Holy Land oppose what they consider a false interpretation of Christianity that is heightening tensions here.
“Christian Zionism transforms faith into a political ideology, and one that needs an enemy,” said the Rev. Rafik Khoury, of the Latin (Roman Catholic) Patriarchate in Jerusalem.
290 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 30, 2006 at 7:27 am
Many Christian Zionists see support of fundamentalist Jews as a means to enable the Second Coming of Jesus, which according to Christian Zionists also means at that time one third of Jews will convert to Christianity while two-thirds Jews will go to hell.
Recognizing the underlying dichotomy of theological positions, and not wanting in any way to jeopardize Christian Zionist political support, the same article says, “These and other theological issues should never be explored.”
THE SAME ARTICLE SAYS, “THESE AND OTHER THEOLOGICAL ISSUES SHOULD NEVER BE EXPLORED.”
What do you thing of that Allyn?
291 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 30, 2006 at 7:32 am
Maybe Jesus Christ will look the other way. Maybe if we pray hard enough we can hide the irrational behavior from Jesus.
And then Jesus will come.
Ignorance is Bliss, I hear.
Mr. Serling, I am interested in your view points as well ….
…and you can tell us all about Jesus.
292 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 30, 2006 at 7:38 am
Jewish scholars and rabbis have become increasingly concerned about the alliance with Christian fundamentalists. Gershom Gorenber states:
“any theology that continues to deny the validity of Judaism and to fantasize about looking forward to the conversion or destruction of the Jews is one that should arouse a great deal of caution among Jews.”
293 CALLIE // Oct 30, 2006 at 9:03 am
Well it figures! More silly Israelis saying the same thing:
“I am an atheist Jew living in his Jewish homeland. If you deny me the ability to know this, you deny me my humanity.”
This just makes me sputter! Who the heck is denying them of anything? They are getting tons of money from Christian charities and fundraisers! Such surly behavior! Buncha babies!
The person answering this atheist (only atheist as far as I’m concerned) said he can’t be both. No this athiest complains that he’s being denied his right to say this.
Well damnation! Go ahead and act like an idiot, then! Make fools of yourselves!
Go ahead and call me a space alien- I don’t care! Put me right along side Esau and Allyn, just so long as they don’t call themselves ATHIEST CHRISTIANS!
Such despical nonsense!
294 CALLIE // Oct 30, 2006 at 9:07 am
Thank you Allyn
But I can tell you right now that anyone will be hardpressed to find such 144,000 in Israel. Not until they get their act together!
Charles, I suggest you go visit Israel one of these days and ask a lot of questions. You should you know.
295 AMorton // Oct 30, 2006 at 8:26 pm
Esau, Your post 289 is right on. I know this for a fact and just one look at Israelmybeloved.com shows how extrabiblical this group really is. They try to maintain both a political stance for national Israel utterly rejecting and stereotyping all palestinians while claining to be doing the work of God.
This is dtestible to me and dangerous for them and their relationship to the one true God.
296 Joyce // Oct 30, 2006 at 9:35 pm
I don’t know where your getting your infomation from, but that is not my belief . Whether Christian’s support the Jews or not, has nothing to do with the Second Coming of Christ . He is coming back whether we support the Jews or not . Christ does not need our help for his Second Coming . He will come back when, God is ready for him to come back . That is God’s decision not ours . I will try again to explain, what I believe about God, concerning the Jews . I believe that the Jews are God’s chosen people . And I believe that God expects Christians to support them . It’s as simple as that . And whether you believe it or not is up to you . I don’t believe that God has asked for our permission, on whether we approve of the Jews or not, that is his decision . And I don’t believe that it’s my place, to tell God what he should about it . If you do that is up to you . But I do know that in Roman’s chap. 11 verses 18 thru 21 it says,
”Boast not against the branches . But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee .
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in .
Well ; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith . Be not high-minded, but fear :
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee”.
So I, believe that pretty much sum’s it up . You either, believe what God is saying, or not that is your decision .
God bless.
297 Joyce // Oct 30, 2006 at 9:54 pm
There you go again, listening to what other people say instead of what God says . To me, that is what I would say is dangerous . I know that I would not, disregard God’s words over man’s .
298 AMorton // Oct 31, 2006 at 1:27 am
Hail Joyce - full of knowledge and truth. Who can stand against her. She endures forever. May her name be a name above all other names.
N O T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
299 CALLIE // Oct 31, 2006 at 1:50 am
Allyn is it possible for Judaism to be a relgion as well as a nationality. Now some of the Israelis are saying that Judaism is also a nationality.
Joyce, I don’t know about anybody else but I don’t think that anyone here is making God do anything.
I most certainly agree that Jesus will come again regardless of what any of us do, especially in regard to Jews.
Indeed, I sure would like to hear what Jesus would say about being Jewish and atheist at the same time.
As for those branches and virgins Joyce, most of them are agnostic and atheists and I am having a very hard time with that.
300 Charles Wesley // Oct 31, 2006 at 2:37 am
Yes Allyn please illuminate us on the 144000 . The bible said that they were FIRST FRUITS . These virgin Jewish men are already with the Lamb .
301 AMorton // Oct 31, 2006 at 2:49 am
Allyn is it possible for Judaism to be a relgion as well as a nationality. Now some of the Israelis are saying that Judaism is also a nationality
Well Callie, not since Jesus called it desolate it isn’t. Try as some may it has never since succeeded in becoming that and I dare say that is because God has called it otherwise. Jesus has now given the kingdom over to another nation, a holy nation of people made up of all races. These are not my words but the words of Jesus.
302 AMorton // Oct 31, 2006 at 2:51 am
Charles, AKA Rod, I have already addressed this…where you been bud?
303 Joyce // Oct 31, 2006 at 3:13 am
Explain ,these are they not defiled by women and where did you find that they were of the New Age Church. These also having their FATHERs name written in their foreheads . Boy thats pretty powerfull .Has this happened already . These are the FIRST FRUITS unto God . If we believe God then we know that he plans ahead of our wisdom to insure that he has 144000 pure Jewish Men . And who are they preaching the Gospel to? Not Gentiles because the time of the Gentiles will be over.
304 Charles Wesley // Oct 31, 2006 at 3:34 am
The 144000 has already been redeemed by God Joyce . And I believe that they will witness to the Jews . In Revelations 14 John tells that the 144000 is ready to spread the Everlasting Gospel and then explains that he who has taken the mark of the beast is doomed . That says that the time of the gentlies making a decision for Christ is over.
Trust the word of God only.
305 AMorton // Oct 31, 2006 at 3:34 am
First of all I didn’t say, Joyce, that it was the new age church for goodness sake.
Secondly, there is an OT passage that tells what the mark of God on the forehead is. I will let you do a word search for that, but if you don’t find it I will show you.
Thirdly, yes they are First Fruits, not last fruits.
Fourth tell me why God needs to reserve a jewish remnant when he has told us through the inspired NT writers that the remnant are from every generation of all people on earth. What verse can you give to show that God is holding in reserve a jewish remnant.
And Fifth, yes they did preach the gospel to the Gentiles as well as their fellow Jews, and the day of pentecost had a good start with 3000 jews being saved on that day. In actuality the number 144000 is a number representing many and is part of the symbolism of the number 12 but multiplied 12 fold. It simply means a great number.
306 AMorton // Oct 31, 2006 at 3:35 am
Matt 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
307 AMorton // Oct 31, 2006 at 3:41 am
You may figure this all out someday Charles and Joyce, but have an open mind so that God can get through to you.
I told myself that when this blog hit 300 I was not going to post here any more. Callie, my email address is of-the-seed@hotmail.com if you want to communicate with me. Charles and Joyce and esau. I wouldn’t mind hearing from you either. Charles and Joyce, I hold no anomosity towards you. I believe you are both saved and in the loving arms of Christ. We disagree on points and that is all. Be well and may God bless.
308 Joyce // Oct 31, 2006 at 4:38 am
Charles,
I totally agree with you . I just don’t understand why it’s so difficult for them to see this also .
AMorton,
Unlike you, I don’t want any honor or glory for anything that I have written . I give all the honor and glory to God . I have replied with scriptures from the Bible, they are not my words .
Callie,
I was responding to Esau’s post # 289 about the Christians supporting the Jews, as a means to enable the Second Coming of Christ . And I didn’t say, that you were making God do anything, I said IF you do that’s up to you . Also did you not get the part about “Boast not against the branches” ? You are treading on dangerous ground by doing this . God has made himself quite clear about this matter . But I guess, your not worried about that, since you don’t seem to regard, that part of the scripture .
309 CALLIE // Oct 31, 2006 at 4:48 am
Okay Allyn. I dare not ask another question to you here. I am awfully glad to have known you. I do have another question for you so I will email it to you.
I must say it will be awfully dull around here without Allyn!
310 Joyce // Oct 31, 2006 at 6:06 am
AMorton,
About the church on post # 302 that was just a typo . And as far as the name on their foreheads that came from Rev. chap. 14 verse 1 . And yes I will be glad to tell you what verses tells you about where the 144,000 come from it is Rev. chap. 7 verses 4 thru 8 . “An 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel .” And about your post # 305 Jesus was rebuking the chief priests and Pharisees . Hebrews chap. 8 verses 6 thru13 tells of how the new and better covenant with Israel supersedes the old .
God bless you .
311 Charles Wesley // Nov 1, 2006 at 11:50 pm
I guess Allyn took his show and went home . Well I know you are still monitoring this site . I will tell you , that you are responsible for causing me to study my bible harder than I have in some time . For the scripture that you gave , I looked at very hard . I also looked at what I espoused as well to be sure . I did learn a lot about the Israelites and the true Jews .
I still hold to the Faith and support the State of Israel and future events. Although now , I am better grounded in the reasons for my beliefs . This has been an experience that I will not forget .
Best Regards
312 AMorton // Nov 2, 2006 at 12:14 am
One more comment for Charles, you made my day, because this is what it is all about, that we are challenged and that brings us to study. I can say the same. You guys have made me look deeper. We may and do hold to a difference on some issues and thats ok. God didn’t say we would be able to see all things clearly, but I am glad too that I have had this experience here. I will try my best next time to do better and more loovingly when I have a discussion with you or whomever. All my best to you and to all those who engaged here.
In Christ
Allyn
313 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 2, 2006 at 9:04 am
those who believe that God still owes the Jews land and protection by divine decree deny the plain meaning of Scripture and make God a liar.
In fact, the loss of Israel’s ancient holdings is a sign of God’s divine judgment against the Jews for rejecting His Son, Jesus Christ, their Messiah.
God warned Israel in the Old Testament Scriptures:
“But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will be astonished, and will hiss; and they will say,
Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?' Then they will say,Because they forsook the LORD their God who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this evil upon them.’” (1 Kings 9:6-9).314 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 2, 2006 at 9:07 am
Scripture is clear that God owes the Jews nothing more, and suggests that the Jews are suffering the ramifications of rejecting Jesus Christ. They have been “broken off” of the root of Christ “because of their unbelief” (Rom. 11:19-20). However, Paul says that the Jews can be grafted in again, “if they do not persist in their unbelief,” for God has the power to do so (Rom. 11:23).
We should also note that the Old Covenant that God entered into with the Jews has been superseded by the New Covenant of Christ (the Church calls this doctrine “supercessionism”). This happened the moment that God tore the curtain of the Jewish Temple in two (Matt. 27:51).
When we speak of the “Old Covenant,” we are referring to the “Mosaic covenant,” that is, the law that God gave the Jews through Moses (see 2 Cor. 3:14).
We are not referring to the Abrahamic covenant which, because it was based on grace through faith, was incorporated into the New Covenant of Christ.
This is why Paul says that Abraham is the father of the children of the New Covenant (see Rom. 4:16; 9:7; Gal. 3:29; James 2:21; see also Gal. 3:9,14,16,18).
315 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 2, 2006 at 9:10 am
The only place where the phrase “Old Covenant” is used in the New Testament is in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, and Paul says that “through Christ it is taken away” (see 2 Cor. 3:14).
Referring to the abrogation of the Old Covenant, Paul tells the Hebrews that “a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness” (Heb. 7:18).
The phrase “set aside” (from the Greek aphetesis) means to annul.
Again, referring to the Old Covenant, Paul says “He abolishes the first in order to establish the second” (Heb. 10:9).
The word “abolish” (from the Greek anaireo) means to abrogate or destroy. Paul uses very specific language to teach that the Old Covenant has been rendered NULL AND VOID by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (see also Heb. 8:7).
This means that the Jews are no longer in a saving covenant with God until they renounce Judaism and are baptized into Jesus Christ.
The Catholic Church has affirmed this fact throughout her history (e.g., the Council of Florence; the Council of Trent; Second Vatican Council, Pius XII’s Mystici Corporis).
Thus, even though the Second Vatican Council affirmed a person’s civil (but not moral) right to religious liberty, it taught that the Church must preach the gospel to the Jews, as she does to everyone else (Nostra Aetate, 23).
316 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 2, 2006 at 9:15 am
The Zionist / Rapturist eschatology requires “three comings of Christ.”
The Protestant scheme of a rapture preceding the millennium and final coming requires “three” comings of Christ.
First, Christ came at the Incarnation.
Second, Christ would come at the “rapture.”
Third, Christ will come at the end of the world.
This scheme is absolutely false and contradicts the perennial teachings of the Church. It is also refuted by Sacred Scripture. For example, Paul says in his letter to the Hebrews:
“And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him” (Heb. 9:27-28).
Paul says that Christ will “appear a second time.” This second appearance of Christ is nothing short of His second and final appearance at the end of the world, when He will judge the living and the dead.
Paul draws a parallel between our death and Christ’s death, and our judgment and Christ’s second appearance.
Following the literary parallel, Christ’s second appearance is the very moment of our “judgment,” for Christ is the “lawgiver and judge” (James 4:2; 5:9).
317 Joyce // Nov 2, 2006 at 7:01 pm
Roman’s 11:25-32,
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
318 Victor Passenheim // Nov 2, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Post #316
Amen, Joyce!
319 Victor Passenheim // Nov 2, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Oops, I meant #317!
320 Joyce // Nov 2, 2006 at 8:11 pm
Hebrew’s 8:6-13,
“But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
321 Joyce // Nov 2, 2006 at 8:29 pm
Thanks Victor, I’m glad to hear from you. Post 319 seems to have malfunctioned some how when I was submitting it. Anyway I was quoting Hebrew’s 8:6-13 about the new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house Judah superseding the old.
322 Joyce // Nov 2, 2006 at 10:49 pm
2 Corinthians 3:14 says,
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ”.
Esau, I don’t understand how you come to the conclusion, that the verse was talking about taking away the covenant. What the verse was referring to is how the vail blinded the Jews about Jesus. And how through Jesus the vail will be removed, so they will be able to understand that Jesus is Christ. And if you would read all of Hebrews8:6-13 you would see, how the new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah superseded the old.
323 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 3, 2006 at 1:24 am
Joyce,
The reason why your post 319 malfunctioned is because Jesus and God are upset with you.
Be very careful not to taunt the Lord and His Son.
324 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 3, 2006 at 1:26 am
What I meant to really say:
Be watchful of what you say in the Lord Jesus Christ’s name.
That is what I meant to say.
325 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 3, 2006 at 1:30 am
Because this Second Coming of Christ refers to the end of the world, Christ will no longer “deal with sin” because He will have already rendered His judgments upon the wicked.
In other words, at Christ’s second and final coming, the fate of all humanity will be sealed. For those who have done evil, it will be too late to repent.
The Scriptures are clear: When Christ comes again, it will be His second and final coming at the end of the world. On this “last day” and at this “hour,” Christ will judge the living and the dead. The righteous will be raised to eternal life, and the unrighteous will be raised to judgment and eternal punishment.
326 Charles Wesley // Nov 3, 2006 at 3:30 am
Esau ,
The point that you are overlooking is when Jesus comes back The time of the Gentile will be over and there will not be any further conversions . But, the time of dealing with the blinded Jews when they will have the Vail lifted will come.
When this happens is up to God wouldn’t you say ? Joyce gave you some really good verses ,didn’t you take time to read them ? Romans 11 tells it all ,verse 18 boast not against the Branches . For some one that questioned the ancestry of Jesus in your other post , I am wondering where you are grafted in? Are you grafted into the right Olive tree ? Oh yeah, its a natural (Jewish) olive tree . I can’t understand why your every statement is to try to dislodge people out of their Christian faith. To do this you try to disenfranchise the Jews from Gods mercy. The plight of the Jews is in good hands as is our salvation . The book of Romans is a part of the bible , you should read it .
327 Joyce // Nov 3, 2006 at 4:16 am
Esau,
The reason post 319 malfunctioned was simply my mistake that caused it there wasn’t anything spiritual about it. I don’t believe God or Jesus would be upset with me for quoting scriptures from the Bible. And I don’t believe I was taunting God or Jesus with quoting scriptures. I’m also trying to figure out what I said in the Lord’s name that I should be watchful for. Maybe your the one who should be watchful if you don’t agree with the scriptures. Because they are God’s words not mine.
328 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 3, 2006 at 6:59 pm
Zionists believe the rapture will be secret, it will be accompanied by confusion since unbelievers won’t understand what is going on.
The very Scripture passages that Protestants use to advance the “rapture” theory say something quite different about the phenomenon.
It says that the rapture will be no secret event, but will be accompanied by the Lords own “cry of command” from heaven, with the “archangel’s call,” and with “the sound of the trumpet of God” (1 Thess. 4:16).
These cries, calls and trumpet blasts will be no secret to anyone, living or dead. In fact, these events will literally “wake the dead,” for they will inaugurate the consummation of the world and the resurrection of all people at the end of time.
For Protestants to argue that the rapture will be a secret event is plainly refuted by Scripture.
329 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 3, 2006 at 7:37 pm
Zionists believe that the rapture will occur before the millennial reign of Christ (either before, during or after the seven-year tribulation).
After the rapture, Christ will rule from Jerusalem for 1,000 years. Thus, Zionists separate the rapture from the end of the world by 1,000 to 1,007 years. The end of the world will immediately follow the millennial period, at which time Jesus will raise the living and the dead.
The Scriptures, however, say that the rapture occurs coincident with the end of the world, not a millennium before the end of the world. Again, turning to the “rapture” passage in 1 Thessalonians, Paul says:
“For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep” (v.15). In other words, those Christians living at the time of the “rapture” are not taken first.
330 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 3, 2006 at 7:39 pm
Instead, “the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (vv.16-17).
These passages clearly teach that the resurrection of the dead precedes the rapture.
Therefore, to know when the rapture occurs, we must first know when the resurrection of the dead occurs.
Scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead occurs on the “last day” of the world (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48).
Because the resurrection of the dead occurs on the “last day” of the world, and the rapture follows the resurrection, this means that the rapture also occurs on the “last day” (there can be no day after the “last day”).
Since the rapture occurs on the “last day,” it cannot occur on any other day (that is, there WAS no “pre-millennial” rapture).
331 Charles Wesley // Nov 4, 2006 at 1:06 am
Esau,
There has been a tendency for preachers that are optimist to preach pre- trib rapture . Most people don’t want to be tested
by having to reject the mark of the beast . People have no problem avoiding truth and turning their ear to a more palatable doctrine . Preachers like to keep the people coming and try not to stress their churches with doom and gloom .
Some people would think that following Jesus and then going through the tribulation in part or fully would be worth the effort . The (rapture) as it is called is most probably 45 days past mid point of the tribulation. Daniel 12 verse 11 & 12 .
It could be after the 1000 year reign . When reading Revelations 5,6,7&8 chronologically speaking we are before the throne before the wrath is poured out Rev.chpt. 8 .
In Revelations 14 which is an elaboration of chapter 7 the wrath comes after the Harvest of the earth by Jesus . On that last day has validity , there is the probability that the Millenium Reign will come after the first part of the tribulation
and before the pouring out of the wrath and Armageddon .
But first of all we will see the Antichrist per 2nd Thess. Chapter 2. If you make it through that you will see Jesus and that is all that I am concerned with. Be careful not to choke a new CHRISTIAN on meat when they have not been weaned off milk . You could be the bird that came and ate the seed before it could take root , Mark chapter 4 (the parable of the sower. All kinds of people read this and other blog topics .
332 Jacob have I loved // Nov 4, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Did somebody say something wrong ?
333 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 5, 2006 at 3:44 am
It’s Jacob I have loved.
334 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 5, 2006 at 3:46 am
“Preachers like to keep the people coming and try not to stress their churches with doom and gloom .’
charles, what is wrong with that? Why are u into the gloom and doom?
335 Charles Wesley // Nov 5, 2006 at 6:08 am
To those that are not looking for Jesus , signs of his coming is gloom and doom . To those that are looking for Jesus those signs that are being manifested in Israel are golden .
For young people the world still has their eye . The Antichrist has yet to appear here on earth with the False Prophet . He will then establish his realm of deception where by you will not be able to buy or sell with out his mark . It takes no rocket scientist to realize that until the last decade there was no way to control commerce to the point described in Revelations. The time is ripe for the failure of the world market and world unrest .They go hand in hand and the Muslim radicals are trying as hard as they can to bring that about . Enter then the Antichrist. He will sit in the Temple Of God as he is God. This was said in 2nd Thess. 2 verse 3&4
336 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 5, 2006 at 6:57 am
the Zionist / Rapture eschatology holds that believing Gentile Christians will be taken up into heaven before the millennial reign of Christ to clear the way for the Jews.
Christ will then choose 144,000 Jewish evangelists to rule with Him from an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. This reign will bring about a mass conversion of the Jews by the end of the millennium period.
But we have already seen that the “rapture” occurs on the “last day” (John 6), and immediately follows the resurrection of the dead (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
This means that the righteous and the unrighteous will be raised at the same time, because there is no day that can follow the “last day” where the unrighteous could be raised.
Scripture, of course, confirms this conclusion. In John 5:28-29, the Lord Jesus says:
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”
Jesus says that the resurrection will occur at “the hour” (v.28). This is the same as saying the resurrection will occur on the “last day” because an hour is part of one day, and that is the “last day” per John 6, 11 and 12. Jesus also says that “all who are in the tombs will hear his voice” (v.28).
This follows Paul’s teaching on the resurrection/rapture event when he says that the Lord will descend from heaven with “a cry of command,” and the “dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess. 4:16).
337 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 5, 2006 at 6:59 am
Finally, Jesus is clear that at this “hour” both those who have done good and those who have done evil will rise at the same time.
The good will be raised to life, and the evil will be raised to judgment. There is simply no exegetical basis for inserting a millennial period between the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. J
esus says that the resurrection happens at “the hour,” when “all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth.”
Thus, Scripture teaches that the rapture of the living occurs coincident with the resurrection of all of the dead, both the good and the evil, at the same time, on the last day of the world.
338 AMorton // Nov 5, 2006 at 3:46 pm
OK, so here I am again. Let’s say that the mark of the beast is literal. What if it is? What would be so terrible about that for the believer? Surely the believer won’t take the mark voluntarily, and if it is forced upon those believers here at that time what could be held against them from God? What is the worse thing that could happen to those who don’t take the mark? If death, so what - we all die.
339 Charles Wesley // Nov 6, 2006 at 5:32 am
Some Christians who believe that they will not be here and be confronted with the False Messiah will be vulnerable to him. After all he will do everything that Jesus is known for .
He will be presented as Jesus come to earth . If people bend their knees to him for economic reasons as will many people,or if they are deceived they are forever lost . So it would be prudent to be aware of the way that Jesus will appear and the way the Antichrist appears . To know the signs of the times and what to look for is important . The Bible said that he would deceive the very elect if it were possible . We will see Jesus in the clouds first. Then he will come to earth for his 1000 year reign .
340 Charles Wesley // Nov 6, 2006 at 6:01 am
(Moving Towards a Third Temple) templemount.org/ tempprep
341 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 6, 2006 at 9:04 am
Scripture does not teach a “future mass conversion of the Jews.”
Because Christian Zionists believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem and reign with the Jews for 1,000 years, they believe that this will bring about a mass conversion of the Jewish people to Christ before the end of the world.
They base this belief primarily on Paul’s letter to the Romans, where Paul says “all Israel will be saved.” Here are the relevant passages in full:
“I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins” (Rom. 11:25-27).
There are obvious problems with the Zionistic interpretation of Paul’s statements.
First, Paul is not speaking about a future millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem that precedes the end of the world. No such thing is mentioned either in Romans 11 or any where else in Scripture. Paul is also not speaking about a future conversion of the Jews. Instead, he is speaking about the present conversion of the Jews. How do we know this?
342 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 6, 2006 at 9:08 am
Because Paul is focused solely on the Jews’ present (not future) condition in Romans 11, specifically, their current HARDNESS OF HEART.
Paul tells them that they WERE the natural branches that were broken off because of their UNBELIEF, but they can be grafted back in again if theyDO NIOT PERSIST IN THEIR UNBELIEF (v.17-23).
Paul is saying that if the Jews change their present condition (hardness of heart and unbelief), then this will result in their present conversion (not a future, en masse conversion of yet-to-be-born descendants).
343 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 6, 2006 at 9:10 am
glad to see you back Allyn.
344 Allyn // Nov 6, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Good job, Esau
345 Allyn // Nov 6, 2006 at 3:32 pm
referring to post 338:
Charles, you agree don’t you that anyone outside of Christ is already lost, don’t you? Since you believe that the church is raptured by this time, taking the mark of the beast or not will make no difference to those left behind. They are already lost if Christ has already claimed His church in order to avoid God’s great wrath upon the world.
However, God says we are not stored up for wrath but that we will have tribulation. That is the big difference in our two beliefs. You believe that God will have to remove us in order to keep us from His wrath but I say He will not need to do that and I believe the Bible backs this up. But, back to those who may be left behind according to what you believe, the vast bulk of Israelites since the Cross (as Gentiles) have rejected Christ’s one all-sufficient sacrifice for sin and are therefore bound for a Christless hell and eternal punishment. Christ (the Prince of Peace and the source of all mercy) gave no spiritual hope for the unregenerate man regardless of how distinguished his nationality or honourable his upbringing. Any way, no one in Scripture outside of the new-born child of God is presented as being qualified to enjoy the peace and mercy of God. Every Jew and Gentile that is not born again is on the broad-road to hell. Jesus made it clear in John 3:3, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
346 Joyce // Nov 6, 2006 at 10:49 pm
I believe what Charles is saying, is that there are Christians who believe in a pre-trib. rapture and Christians who believe in a mid-trib. rapture. And Christians that believe in the pre-trib. rapture may not be prepared for what will happen. So they might be decieved by the antichrist. Because not all people that say they are Christians, read their Bible the way they should. So they may not be prepared for what is going to happen during the first part of the tribulation.Because they believe they won’t be here at that time. And I also think that Charles believes that after the fulness of the Gentiles, the Jews will have a chance to accept Jesus. And from the scriptures in Romans11:25-27 I also believe this. And I also believe that we will have a mid-trib. rapture. So I hope that Christians will be ready for whatever happens. And for those that are lost I hope and pray they will except Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, and be ready to meet the Lord when the rapture does occur.
347 Allyn // Nov 6, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Yes, at any rate we all need to be prepared because Jesus will come as a thief in the night and nobody knows when the thief comes so likewise we do not know when Jesus will come. When He does come, it will be the last day. Not the second to the last day. When He comes the dead in Christ will rise first from their graves and then we who remain will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Then the judgement. No secret rapture for when He comes every eye will see Him.
348 Allyn // Nov 7, 2006 at 12:50 am
What is ignored is that the King of Israel and his faithful israelite followers ARE Israel. The rebels who rejected the king and the kingdom are NOT Israel. BUT…they can REJOIIN Israel when they believe.
Now, lets examine the dispensationalists “love” of “physical” Israel. they point to OT passages that speak of God regathering Israel, all of which speak of God blessing and protecting Israel. they believe that the modern state of Israel is the fulfilment of these prophecies. They even set up organizations that look for jews in various countries and convince them to move to Israel, even paying their way to get there. Now those who do not see unbeleving jews as the people of God, are labled as anti semetic” by those who “Love” Israel. but here is the curious thing. those who reject unbeleving jews as being the people of God, maintain that they can and will become the people of God when they believe. and to that end they believe in evangelizing the jewish people. but many dispensationalist organizations have abandon evangelizing of Jews. What love is this?
even more startling is the fact that according to Dispensationalist eschatology, the horrific events of 70 AD. subsequent persecutions of the scattered jewish people, and even the holocaust has not been sufficient sufferring for the jewish people. oh no, their eschatology has the jewish people suffering yet another near extermination where only 1 out of 3 jews will survive. this they refer to as a “rescue”. to put it in perspective this would be like Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego going into the furnace and only Abednego coming out. it never seems to bother dispensationalists that this doesnt match the promised belssings and security of regathered israel as promised in the prophecies they claim apply here. and dispensationalists should ask themselves that if they truly love Israel, why do they support organizations that convince jews to move there and even pay their way when they believe that in the end most of them are going to be slaughterd or taken off into captivity?
since dispensationalist see Matt 24 as future yet, and they claim to see ALL the signs of it’s pending fulfillment present NOW, why would they encourage jews to move there? wasnt Jesus instructions to FLEE Jerusalem when these signs were seen? How do you reconcile the propheies of the regathered Israel dwelling safely in the land with an eschatology that proclaims that most of them are going to perish?
349 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 12:52 am
I left out something very important in my previous post. I meant to say also that in order for the lost to be saved, they have to repent of their sins and ask Jesus to forgive their sins and live their life for the Lord. This is a very important part of being saved. I wanted to make this clear for anyone that is lost that may read these posts. Because you never know who might be reading these comments. There could be someone reading these comments that needs to be saved. And I hope and pray that they will make that decision. Because none of us are guaranteed our next breath, God could take us at anytime. All it takes is some kind of fatal accident or sickness and we would be bowing before God. So I hope and pray for those that are not saved that they will be. To give yourself to the Lord will be the most important decision of your life.
May God Bless.
350 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 2:52 am
Allyn,
I agree with you that Jesus comes as a thief in the night and that no one knows the exact time. And I don’t believe that it will be a secret either. I believe that everyone will know when he returns. But I do believe that through the scriptures that God gives us an approximate timetable of the Lord’s return. In Matthew 24 he tells us of the things that will happen upon his return. And after all these things happen he says in verse 30,
And yes in verse 36 it says,
” But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
And I agree with that. But I do believe that he has given us an approximate timetable of his return. But not the day or the hour. And as far as the regathering of Israel and what happens as a result of that is God’s will. It’s going to happen no matter what anyone does. All of these things have been planned by God. So who are we to question them.
351 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 2:59 am
Oops I goofed again, but I’m sure you know Matthew 24:30.
352 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 7, 2006 at 3:07 am
You’re doing it again joyce. You’re upsetting the Lord Jesus.
353 Allyn // Nov 7, 2006 at 3:41 am
I don’t think that is what Joyce is doing Esau. (maybe you are just kidding around though) :)
I appreciate you sincere post, Joyce, but I just think we are going to have to disagree on our understanding of Matthew 24 as well as Mark 13 and Luke 21. I believe histor bears it out that these things have happened already and the signs Jesus spoke of were for that generation he referred to. I don’t see any reason to project Jesus’ words 2000 years into the future when the plain language is that it was for them and their time. History shows that those things did happen.
354 Charles Wesley // Nov 7, 2006 at 5:19 am
Allyn ,
If God blinds you nobody can bring you your sight but His designated (Jesus) in the case of the Jews .
355 Charles Wesley // Nov 7, 2006 at 5:38 am
Allyn
What is this dispensationalist, we are all the body of Christ. It’s not you against them. Why are you in such opposition to the Jewish future in Israel . Oh I guess you now have a heart for the Jews . Why do you kick against the pricks Allyn.
I have noticed every time that (Off The Wall) Esau says something that questions the very foundation of Christianity you have nothing to say, but let someone glory that the coming of Christ appears soon and you rebut their comment.
Ask your self this Esau and Allyn how many souls has your comments lead to the Lord or how many have you driven away by your negative comments ? That is the real question.
356 Allyn // Nov 7, 2006 at 6:18 am
What foundation of Christianity has Esau spoken against? So far I haven’t seen anything except that you do not agree with him. I can tell you for a fact if he were speaking against the foundation, namely Christ then I would be the first to rebuke him. If he, on the other hand is speaking his opinion on the non-essentials what right do I have to rebuke that opinion. You have your rights and he has his so get over it Charles. Your problem is that you just want to stifle the comments of those whom you do not agree with. What does that make you when you try to shut somebody up? My freedom is in Christ and so is Esau’s. You nor anybody else can take that freedom from us.
Concerning your last question…if the shoe fits wear it. I just wonder where this hateful attitude you have towards a fellow believer in Christ is coming from. Charles have you actually died to self?
357 Charles Wesley // Nov 7, 2006 at 6:20 am
Allyn,
I really thought that you were more observant than that . Post 337 is really out of touch friend . Have you not been aware of the proposed new implantable chip that will give the Antichrist’s system the ability to control the economy as in the bible . You must not be looking for this and could get caught unaware. This would be the downfall to being a preterist . In effect as the Jews are blinded so are the preterist
to future events. The mark will not be forced on you because you will have to deny Christ and bow to the Antichrist or starve or worse. You wont be able to own property or get anything without sympathetic marked people.
Esau,
The bible tell that the Antichrist will show up on the earth verses the Lord will come in the clouds. When He comes in the clouds we will go to meet Him in the air. Now He also comes to Jerusalem to Mt. Olives where he now will rule the 1000 years. Now the coming in the clouds is tied to the harvest and the entry through the Eastern Gate and standing on Mt. Olives is synonymous with the millinial reign. Figure that one out .
358 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 7:14 am
No Esau, the only thing that is upsetting things besides satan is this new mouse that I have. It moves too fast and that makes it hard for me to control sometimes. And besides I haven’t been using a computer for very long. It must be nice to be perfect I guess you never make mistakes.
359 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 8:34 am
Allyn,
I guess you’re right about us disagreeing about Matthew 24. But could you tell me where in history it shows those things have already happened? Because this is news to me. I have never heard in history about that the rapture has already happened. Or that heaven and earth passed away. In all my 55 years of life I have never heard anything like this before. I’m not trying to be impolite but this just seems so bizarre to me. But I really would like for you to show me where in history that these things have happened.
360 Allyn // Nov 7, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Charles, show me where Scripture ties all together what you are picking and choosing in your post 356.
Joyce, I never said that the rapture has occurred. After all here we are still on earth. The Bible does not mention the rapture as being an event seperate from the 2nd coming of Christ. It is a simultaneous event where in a split second the dead in Christ will rise and we who are still alive will be changed.
361 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Allyn,
This is very confusing to me I thought you said on post 352 that those things in Matthew 24 has already happened. Well since Matthew 24 is referring to the Lord’s 2nd coming then I just don’t understand what you’re saying. What do you think that Matthew 24 is referring to?
362 Allyn // Nov 7, 2006 at 6:20 pm
Joyce, Matthew 24 is not all about His 2nd coming. In fact almost none of it is. The Olivet discourse found in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are about the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans. Notice the time elements given in those three Bible locations ie: “this generation”, these things”, “When you see”. All these types of word usages wer for the listeners of Jesus. He had only a few of His disciples there with Him when He spoke these words and they were the ones who would see these things and were of the generation they were meant for.
363 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 7, 2006 at 8:55 pm
Allyn is right, Joyce, I was only joking.
364 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 7, 2006 at 9:10 pm
The Jews needed to hear Paul’s message because they began to think that God had forsaken them (after all, God tore their Temple curtain in two, and Paul was now telling them that their Jewish works of law could only condemn them, not save them).
Paul explains that, even though God has abrogated the Old Covenant, He has not rejected the Jewish people.
Paul says in verses 1-2, “Has God rejected His people? By no means!…God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew.”
Thus, Paul’s whole point in Romans 11 is to teach the Jews that they have salvation, here and now, not in the Old Covenant of works, but in the New Covenant of grace (v.6). Paul even says that the purpose of his mission to the Romans was to “make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them” (v.14).
Paul is talking about saving the Jews of his day, and never refers to some fuzzy event in the distant future when God will suddenly effect a miraculous, universal conversion of their offspring.
What good would that do for the Jews who lived during the Church age? God doesn’t work that way. God wants to save the Jews now.
365 Charles Wesley // Nov 7, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Allyn,
A question for you ; If the tribulation has already occurred and the wrath ,altogether 7 years and, the 1000 year reign also from the starting date of 70 A.D. according to you have accounted for 1007 years.This puts the completion of events at 1077 A.D. So Jesus has already come and gone and that (last day ) that Esau speaks of has come and gone . So is this Heaven or Hell . Now the Lord casts Satan into the Lake of Fire so evil will be a thing of the Past and also Death is no more . You must admit there is something wrong there. What
happened to those 1029 years that we are in limbo .
As far as the mark of the beast it is literal. You must have seen the articles about the implantable chips that are encoded with your medical history ect. Just try to buy something when the computer is down in a store. If you do not have the encoded implant your account will not be accessible in the future. Even a child can see that the move to the aforementioned system is inevitable. The advantages of the chip are the new rage ! Christians will oppose the new system , also people that want their privacy will not want their actions tracked as they pass sensors in their every day life, Also those that are less than legal or not where they should be visiting the wrong person will oppose the system.
But with world economic failure the Antichrist will be able to implement the world system.
If you ran a provability scenario of where are moving with technologically and the likely hypothesis of the future world economy and political alignments it becomes more likely that
the world is about to get crazy. God gave us brains to think
and wisdom to discern ,and a will to decide ,he didn’t prophesy the towers or the Titanic , or the Great Depression but they happened .
Allyn you and Esau asserted that Jesus was not a Jew . This is a direct contradiction to the Bible . Either the Bible is the
Word of God or it is a lie. Satan will provide all kinds of supposed facts and half truths such as the Davinci code.
How many has bought into that? A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump .
366 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Sure you were Esau, so was I. We’re just both a couple of jokers aren’t we? Anyway about what you were referring to on post 363 did you forget about Romans 11:25? Where it says,
And the fulness of the Gentiles has not happened yet. I’m not saying that Paul wasn’t talking to the Jews back then, he was. But he was also talking about the future Jews. They will be blind until the fulness of the Gentiles, and then the blindness will be removed, so they can understand about Jesus, and then they can be saved. And that is God’s covenant with the Jews.
367 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 10:54 pm
I’m going to try quoting that verse again hopefully without hitting the wrong button. Here goes:
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles, be come in.”
368 Joyce // Nov 7, 2006 at 11:06 pm
Well, aha, satan didn’t win that time. And hopefully with a little more time, and practice my computer skills will improve also.
369 Joyce // Nov 8, 2006 at 3:12 am
Allyn,
On post # 32 you said that you are a-mil/preterist. What exactly are your beliefs? Does that mean that you believe that everything has already happened except for the 2nd coming of Christ? If everything else has already happened then why hasn’t Christ come back yet? Why would he wait so long? Because in Matthew 24 it says that immediately after the tribulation the sun and the moon will be darkened and about the stars falling from heaven and how the heavens shall be shaken. And then it tells about the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power great glory. And all these things shall happen immediately after the tribulation according to Matthew 24:29. So how does this concur with your beliefs?
370 Allyn // Nov 8, 2006 at 4:03 am
Charles, you need to recheck your facts on all counts. ALL COUNTS.
371 Allyn // Nov 8, 2006 at 4:11 am
Dear Joyce, here is my answer to your post #368 but it is only an answer in part. It is very difficult to communicate well on this blog.
As for concrete indicators of the near coming of Christ, the Bible doesn’t give many. Most of the signs that are popularly applied to that topic (e.g., earthquakes, famines, pestilence, false christs, wars and rumors of wars) are not really applicable, and are found in passages related to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21).
The one thing the Bible does indicate is that Christ will come after certain developments have occurred within His body, the church.
One of these is the evangelization of the nations. Though Matthew 24:14 may or may not be talking about conditions that were met prior to 70 AD (cf. Col.1:6, 23), it reveals the same concern of God that is found in the Great Commission, namely, that all nations be evangelized and discipled (Matt.28:19-20/ Mark 16:15). God has waited 2000 years, so far, for us to get as far as we have gotten on this assignment, and since it is still moving forward, I doubt that He will abort the project before it is completed.
The other development that God seems to be waiting for is the maturity and the unity ofthe saints (Eph.4:13-16/Mark 4:29).
The first coming of Christ is likened, in scripture, to a sunrise (Isa.60:1-3/ Mal.4:2/ Luke 1:78), and so is the second coming (2 Pet.1:19/ Matt.24:27 [see the Greek for “lightning”: “Astrape” means “bright shining,” as in Luke 11:36]). Before the morning sun appears, the light in the eastern sky becomes gradually brighter. “The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, that grows brighter and brighter until full day” (Prov.4:18).
The glory of the Lord will be revealed in us (Rom.8:18) as Christ is progressively formed in us (Gal.4:19). This process will be measured on the scale of our love for and unity with each other (Eph.4:13/1 Cor.1-3/ John 17:21-23). It seems that it will resemble the dawning of a new day, “the Day of the Lord,” with His people more and more resembling Him, both corporately and individually, and the light of His countenance upon us becoming brighter (Psalm 4:6), until the Son Himself appears over the horizon to judge the world and to reward those who love His appearing.
Just so I am not misunderstood, I believe in an actual future day of the second coming of Christ, to raise and glorify the saints (John 5:28-29/ Phil.3:20-21) and to bring in the new heavens and the new earth (2 Pet.3:10-13). I do not necessarily anticipate the world getting better and better, as some do, though this may in fact happen. It is the change in God’s own people that I think is predicted, and this change may occur in a hostile environment, and may even be augmented by persecution (2 Cor.4:16-18). So, even if the world gets worse and worse, and we are persecuted as never before, our light will shine in the faces of our persecutors, brighter and brighter until the Son Himself arises for all to see and his enemies wither like the grass on the rooftops in the blazing sun (James 1:11/Isa.37:27).
372 Joyce // Nov 8, 2006 at 5:20 am
Allyn,
If you believe that what Jesus was talking about, “This generation shall not pass”, was for the Jews of Paul’s day. Then you must think that the 2nd coming of Christ has already happened. Because not only does it say, “This generation shall not pass”, but it also says, “till all these things be fulfilled”. And one of “these things” was about the 2nd coming of Christ. And so that generation has aready passed and all those things had to be fulfilled. So according to that the 2nd coming of Christ would have already happened.
373 Allyn // Nov 8, 2006 at 5:41 am
No Joyce, I do not believe Christs second coming is done. Jesus used the phrasiology of the prophets when speaking of judgement from God. The coming of the Lord is a prhase Jesus used to show that Israel was once again about to be judged for their sin. That sin, as Jesus was predicting, was the rejection of the Son of God. In Matthew 21 is the parable of the wicked vinedressers. I’ll let you read this but it tells of this judgement time which was to come upon those who rejected Him.
374 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 8, 2006 at 8:18 am
Zionists read Romans 11:25-27 with futuristic glasses to make the passages conform to their pre-millennial eschatology, but nothing in the text warrants such a reading.
Many read into the text a sequential ordering of conversions based on Paul’s presentation of:
Based on the words “until” (regarding the Gentiles’ conversion), and “so,” often translated as “then” (regarding the Jews’ conversion), Zionists see the Jews’ conversion coming after all the Gentiles are saved, which will be at the end of time.
But Paul is not speaking about the TIMING of the conversions; he is speaking about the MANNER of the conversions. When Paul says “and so all Israel will be saved,” the Greek word for “so” (houtos) is an adverb which means “in the same manner,” and modifies the verb “will be saved.”
Thus, houtos describes HOW Israel will be saved, not WHEN Israel will be saved.
In certain Protestant translations, “so” is erroneously translated as “then,” which contributes to the confusion and Zionist bias of a future conversion.
375 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 8, 2006 at 8:23 am
Paul explains the manner in which God will save the Jews: “So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace” (Rom. 11:5).
That is, Paul says that a “remnant” of Jews will be saved by “grace.”
Paul calls this a “mystery” (v.25) because, even though the Jews appear entirely cut off from God, God is still saving a remnant of them by grace.
Why does Paul emphasize the manner in which God is saving the Jews (via remnant and grace)?
Paul does this for a couple of important reasons…..
376 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 8, 2006 at 8:30 am
First, the Jews had wrongly believed that they were saved by the Mosaic “works of law.” In Romans 11:6 and elsewhere, Paul teaches them that they are saved by grace and not works of law.
In using the word houtos, Paul connects the manner in which the Jews are saved in verse 26 to the manner in which the Gentiles are saved in verse 25.
Paul does this to show that, as the Gentiles are saved through the grace of the New Covenant, “so” (in the same manner) the Jews are saved as well. This would have been especially striking to devout Jews, since the Gentiles were being saved but were never under the Mosaic law.
Paul is teaching that both Jews and Gentiles are saved in the same manner (by grace, not works of law), as they are now one in the New Covenant (see Gal. 3:28-29).
Second, Paul is emphasizing that the Jews had a bad track record with God, which is why God is saving only a “remnant” of them.
This is why Paul mentions that in Elijah’s time only 7,000 of out of ten million Jews didn’t bend the knee to Baal (v.4).
In emphasizing the “remnant,” Paul is urging the Jews to repentance. He wants to change the course of events. Paul says that “if they do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted back in” (v.23).
Since Paul says “if” they don’t persist in unbelieving, the Jews’ conversion is not a given; for Paul, it is still an open question. Because God is saving a “remnant” of the Jews, Paul says he is trying to “save some of them” (v. 14).
Paul’s teaching is consistent with Isaiah’s prophecy: “For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return” (Isaiah 10:22; see Rom. 9:27).
377 Victor Passenheim // Nov 8, 2006 at 11:29 am
Guys, everybody, stop bickering with each other. I know it’s addicting, but it’s a waste. Besides, do you really think you are changing hearts and minds by this or that God is somehow glorified in all this?
378 Allyn // Nov 8, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Posts 373, 374, 375 - VERY GOOD, Esau!
379 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 8, 2006 at 7:25 pm
Victor we are not bickering. We are having a discussion. Why don’t you join? BTW, have I ruffled your feathers?
380 Charles Wesley // Nov 8, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Hi Victor,
I have been looking at the Temple Institute. org and the Reestablished Sanhedrin also Recent Developments and templemount.org articles.
The Temple construction is moving on . The subject of rebuilding is coming to the forefront. Soon!
381 Joyce // Nov 8, 2006 at 11:15 pm
Esau,
What I believe is this. In Romans 11:7-11 where it refers to Israel being blinded. I believe that when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, that the blindness will be removed from Israel. Then at that time “all Israel shall be saved.”According to Romans 11:26. And then of course in verses 27-32, God explains about the covenant with Israel. As it says in verse 27:
“For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”
God doesn’t say maybe, or I will think about it. He says “I shall take away their sins”. I believe that he made himself quite clear on the subject. Now if you want to question God’s intentions concerning this, that is up to you. But I believe that I would be very careful about that. Because God makes it very clear how he feels about anyone questioning his judgements in verses 33 and 34:
“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out!”
“For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?”
Now, I believe he’s made himself very clear about questioning what he does about Israel or anything else. So I surely will not question his decisions. And about the time of when this all will happen. I believe is when the Lord returns and their blindness is removed from them, then they will have their chance to accept Jesus.
382 Joyce // Nov 9, 2006 at 1:34 am
Allyn,
Regarding your post # 361. I can’t understand how you can say about Matthew 24, that almost none of it is about the 2nd coming of Christ. Because beginning with verses 3-51 in Matthew 24, they are all about the signs and of the 2nd coming of Christ. And in Mark 13 verses 4-37. And also in Luke 21 verses 7-36. And about the destruction of Jerusalem, which actually it says the destruction of the temple, that is only mentioned in the first 2 verses of Matthew 24. And also in the first 2 verses in Mark 13. And in Luke 21 it is only mentioned in verse 6. So if you have read these verses I can’t understand how you got things so mixed up. Because Matthew 24:3 says:
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
I believe it is pretty obvious what this verse is about. And yes, he was referring to the destruction of the temple in the first 2 verses of Matthew 24, but after that it was all about the signs and of the 2nd coming of Christ. And also the part about the generation. Since it’s obvious to me that most of Matthew 24 is about the Lord’s return. Then, in verse 34 where Jesus refers to, “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled”.Then, I don’t see how he can possibly be referring to the Jews of Paul’s day.
383 Charles Wesley // Nov 9, 2006 at 2:44 am
Victor ,
What are some good sites for Christians to visit that are friendly to the Chosen People . No Jehovah’s witnesses or closet Jehovah’s witnesses please . I am a Christian Zionist and can’t help it . I am for building the temple also.
384 Stan // Nov 9, 2006 at 4:00 am
test
385 truth // Nov 9, 2006 at 4:01 am
Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am
an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul says that God has not cast away his peoplle. WHO does paul point to as
proof? To unbeleving jews or to himself a jewish beleiver?
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not
know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel,
saying,
Then Paul brings up the remnant from elijah’s day. where these unbelievers or
believers?
NO WHERE in scripture is God’s remnant EVER spoken of as being unbelievers.
the Remnant are the faithful believers.
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this
present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Paul is pretty clear here, it was THEN, at THIS PRESENT TIME, that there was a
remnant. Paul does not say there is going to be a remnant at some far off future
time, he was talking about HIS DAY.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have
obtained it,and the rest were blinded.
It si the ELECT who are the remnant, the faithful Jews who believed in and
followed their messiah.
The remnant that paul speaks of is the faithful JEWISH believers like himself and
all the other jewsih beleivers.
This is the context starting from chapter 9 all the way through chapter 11.
Joyce, I am pretty sure Esau will respond, but I have a question for you. Who is
Paul speaking of when he say not all Israel is not of Israel? Does this make sense if
he is speaking of physical Israel whom you say God is going to save in the end or
does it make better sense that he is saying that those saved are all believing Israel
and when the full number of Gentiles have also come in then He - God has fulfilled
His promise that then at that time “all Israel shall be saved” by virtue of the fact
that the Gentiles have come in in their full number and are included and
recognized as part of Israel. God’s promise has been made manifest by the fact
that all Israel (Jes and Gentile) have come to full number.
Actually, the disciples did not ask anything about the end of the world but about
the end of the age. Also, the disiples did not ask Jesus about His second coming at
all because they knew nothing of that because jesus had not yet even told them He
was leaving let alone coming back. No, what the Disciples were asking when they
aske what the signs were of His coming was what are the signs of your judgement
against zJerusalem. We know this because this is the same language and use of the
word “coming” that was used by the prophets when they spoke of God’s
judgement against Israel in the OT Times.
See Joyce, this is the confusion that is out there. Jesus was speaking of His coming
in judgement upon Jeruslaem that happened in that generation only 40 short
years after Jesus was crucified. Once you realize that the Disciples did not even
have a clue Jesus was leaving them then you can see that they were not speaking
of something they did not know but were speaking the language these well
informed Jews had of the Old Testament.
A challenge for you - go to a good Bible word search site and put in the word
“coming” and see how often that word is used to show God’s judgement.
386 Victor Passenheim // Nov 9, 2006 at 4:01 am
Charles,
I don’t know about the Temple Institute site, but I know any information on the Temple reconstruction, preparations, can be found with folks at Arutz Sheva (israelnationalnews.com).
Charles they have live radio shows almost daily. I recommend radio hosts Tovia Singer and Tamar Yonah. If you call them live your call is virtually guaranteed to be taken.
They’re great. They’ll be able to assist you with info and are very pleasant to talk to.
387 truth // Nov 9, 2006 at 4:07 am
This is Allyn
I am sorry for how my post by Truth looks. used my notepad to write it and I guess it did not copy well from it.
I have been banned from this site when I use my real name. You may read this but it may be deleted. I suspect I will be banned all together. If you want to join my for more discussions please go to www.undergodproductions.com and click on the discussion board link. This is not an advertisement but just a possible opportunity. My previous post will be there in its entirity so that we may continue our discussion. I ban no one from my boards. Bring you thoughts.
388 Victor Passenheim // Nov 9, 2006 at 5:34 am
Allyn,
I was wondering when Ryan would get around to banning you. It’s about time.
Understand this. Until you repent regarding your attitude to the Jews, not only will you not prosper, but you actually call a curse on yourself.
Your rantings about Scripture have been so contrary to the overarching redemptive message of God’s love for His people, Israel, and His plan of salvation for all of mankind through them (not that all will be saved).
389 CALLIE // Nov 9, 2006 at 5:38 am
This is an israeli citizen on a blog:
“We should all be communist and lives on communes where we share all the women and don’t know who our children really belong to…since they belong to everyone..because having our “own” children would invoke having a bloodline that could potentially create class warfare yet again.”
Now I ASK YOU! Does this sound like someone who is blind? I hardly think so.
Does this sound like a virgin?
Does this sound like a chosen child of God?
No to all of these.
And let me say for the record, many of them think and talk this way. I have been visiting the israel blogs and they make no sense to me. But they sure know what they are saying and they don’t talk like they are blind or lost to me.
I think it is mean that this blog is banning Allyn. That is just plain nuts! What has Allyn done to be banned? He doesn’t use foul language, he says no off color remarks.
Why should Allyn be banned?
390 CALLIE // Nov 9, 2006 at 5:44 am
Victor you are so unbelievably arrogant that you would dare say that God would put a curse on Allyn. It is you that will have the curse on you for you do not speak or think for God! And you have some idiotic and cowardly nerve talking to Allyn NOW, that he cannot respond.
Easy for you, but I know you are not a truthful or honest human being. You are just mean-spirited and that is all. Talking about curses as if you know. Lilke you know everything there is to know about God.
I suppose you think like that Israeli and want to have lots of women and have 50 children, huh victor?
I suppose that makes sense to you?
391 CALLIE // Nov 9, 2006 at 5:46 am
Victor it is you that puts a curse on yourself. Period.
392 Charles Wesley AKA Rod Serling // Nov 9, 2006 at 7:06 am
There Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak
393 Joyce // Nov 9, 2006 at 8:15 am
Victor,
You’re right, this is a waste of time. It was just so hard not respond whenever I heard God’s words being misinterpreted. I just can’t understand how they think it’s alright to change the word of God to suit their self. I’ve tried my best to get through to them, but they will not listen. I guess you just can’t help someone who doesn’t want help. Anyway Charles and I have enjoyed talking with you. Oh by the way I’m Charles’ wife.
God bless you.
394 Victor Passenheim // Nov 9, 2006 at 10:47 am
Joyce,
Nice to have “met” you and Charles. As the Jews would say, maybe “next year in Israel”?
If you haven’t been, I strongly encourage you to go and support these lovely folks.
395 Not decieved // Nov 9, 2006 at 7:43 pm
Join Jesus and the land is unlimited.
396 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 9, 2006 at 8:54 pm
I am in no relation to Callie and Allyn, but I am truly glad to have “met” the both of them. It is good to know that there are people out there who have sound minds and understand the true interpretations of scripture.
Aside from blogging, I would never want to be in the company of Charles, Joyce, or Victor. Certainly not to discuss scripture and politics. I am not into screaming matches with ill-informed folks.
This is the great thing about blogging. You can get your point across without someone cutting into your speech and screaming you down.
Am I to assume that I will be banned also, now that Allyn is banned?
How very interesting. And most revealing.
397 Victor Passenheim // Nov 10, 2006 at 12:07 am
To Esau, Callie, Ally, etc.,
I have just one thing to say:
Jacob I have loved.
398 Joyce // Nov 10, 2006 at 2:07 am
Victor,
We have never been to Israel, but we would love to go there. Maybe one day we’ll be able to go. I sure hope so. It would be nice to meet the people there, and to be where Jesus has been.
Esau,
You, Allyn, and Callie are the ones that seem to be doing all the screaming and insulting. Besides on post # 378 you told Victor that we weren’t bickering, you said that we were having a discussion. Did we ruffle your feathers? As far as you not wanting to be in our company, same to you. Because, I’m sure not going to lose any sleep over it. Also I don’t have a problem with understanding the scriptures. It’s the MISINTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURE that I have a problem with. And as far as anyone being banned, from this blog, I don’t know anything about that.
399 CALLIE // Nov 10, 2006 at 7:30 am
In your wildest dreams, victor.
400 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 10, 2006 at 7:40 am
Esau wanted to rule the Kingdom of God for his own personal gain and with carnal motives and methods.
In Ezekiel 36, the prophet turns to Israel and tells them about Edom in verses 2-5,
2 Thus says the Lord GOD, Because the enemy has spoken against you, Aha! and, The everlasting heights have become our possession . . . 5 therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and AGAINST ALL EDOM, WHO APPROPRIATED MY LAND FOR THEMSELVES AS A POSSESSION with wholehearted joy and with scorn of soul, to drive it out for a prey.
401 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 10, 2006 at 7:47 am
The conflict between Jacob and Esau in this prophecy is very clear. The fight is over the land of Canaan, which both wanted as their possession.
When God scattered the House of Israel from 745-721 B.C., only Judah stood in the way of Esau’s descendants from possessing the land. When Judah was taken to Babylon from 604-586 B.C., Edom then appropriated God’s land for themselves, not to use it for God’s will, but for their own selfish motives.
402 Victor Passenheim // Nov 10, 2006 at 6:44 pm
Esau,
Romans 9: They were chosen
Romans 11: and they have experienced a hardening in part - for the sake of the Gentiles, the wild olive tree, that we might be grafted in.
You would do well to really focus on vv. 17-36 (especially toward the end). There’s a warning there for you and an assurance of the plans for Israel. Clearly, it is the remnant that will be saved, but I think you may be surprised as to just how large that remnant will be.
The land was promised to Israel “for perpetuity” (Jer. 32:37-44; Psalm 105:7-11). They are there now, because God wants them there, and that is where they will remain.
In light of all this, your continued opposition to Israel is dangerous to your own well being and simply utter foolishness.
403 Charles Wesley // Nov 10, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Hi Victor,
Have you checked out those sites on the preparation for the new temple . They are training newborn male children that qualify for Temple Priesthood . There are some very interesting articles contained in those sites. Preparations are underway for the new temple . There is only one thing (mosque) that still stands in the way . When God is ready He will reclaim (HIS) mount.
Maybe Soon…………………………..
404 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 10, 2006 at 8:38 pm
Dangerous to my own well being?
How?
Charles you speak like a Vincent character on a Vincent Price movie. You really make me laugh.
405 Charles Wesley // Nov 11, 2006 at 5:06 am
Off The Wall Esau
The articles mentioned in post 402 are easy to find .Check them out . I am glad that you are amused . I know that there is no way for you to research them objectively .
By the way you seem medicated most of the time while you make your post . And that is not amusing .
406 Joyce // Nov 11, 2006 at 6:24 am
Esau,
I think you need glasses. Because Charles didn’t make the comment that you were referring to on your post # 403. If you got mixed up on that, then I see how you could easily get mixed up on the scriptures. So you should read the scriptures again, and maybe you will realize just how mixed up you have been about them.
407 To two jerks // Nov 11, 2006 at 6:59 am
Mrs. Charles and Mr. Joyce, you two are a couple of complete wackos. Your attitude is less then Christ like and for anyone to dialog with you further would be like having a battle of wits with piss ants.
408 Charles Wesley // Nov 11, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Coming from you Alli,Calli Esau I take that as a compliment .
I’ll take my place with the overwhelming majority of other Futurist Christians that read the bible as I do .
I suggest that you check in at your nearest Kingdom Hall .
They will be more receptive to your ilk . Overall I think except for being a little aggravated at us that you are a pretty good fellow . But, I am afraid that we will not agree on the biblical future . I guess that when the temple is built and the Antichrist displays himself in it that you will think back on these sessions with regret .
409 Joyce // Nov 11, 2006 at 6:35 pm
To post # 406 whom I assume is either Allyn,Esau, or Callie,
Your comment on post # 406 speaks for itself about whose attitude is not being Christ like. I don’t think that name calling is appropriate behavior for a Christian. After all were not children were adults. So I think we should act accordingly. A Christians actions should bring honor and glory to the Lord not dishonor. After all, If you are a Christian you are supposed to love your brothers and sisters in Christ, and also love your enemies. Hate is a very self defeating emotion. As a Christian to give into it only does harm to your testimony to Christ. And as Christians, if our behavior is no different than others, then what kind of testimony is that to Christ? So as a Christian, we should be good a example to others, and love one another for our testimony to Christ.
410 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 11, 2006 at 9:12 pm
Joyce in my post 403 I am asking a questions of victor. In my last two lines I am speaking to Charles.
I am not mixed up or medicated. None of my posts are from mix-ups.
Explain something to me Joyce or Charles: What kind of Messiah is coming? An “idea” of a Messiah or Jesus Christ Himself?
This is not a trick question. I have a reason for asking.
411 Esau I Have Hated // Nov 11, 2006 at 9:17 pm
‘They are training newborn male children that qualify for Temple Priesthood .”
No really Charles, I am really serious when I say you sound like Vincent Price in one of his movies. Look at that sentence above. What are you talking about - newborn male children in training - I think you are being very naive.
Where is this taking place - this training?
412 Victor Passenheim // Nov 11, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Charles,
I’m not following that (Temple preparations, etc.) at this time, simply because I believe it is in preliminary stages from what you are telling.
Esau,
Clearly you didn’t read the admonitions in the Scriptures that I posted. Also, if you were really at all interested in what Charles had to say, other than just to make fun of him, then you would look up the websites he’s referring to rather than speak out of place.
413 Don't be decieved // Nov 11, 2006 at 10:40 pm
They can build a million stone temples.
None of them will ever be God’s True Temple….they all will be satanic fakes.
Jesus and His followers are God’s true temple, made without hands.
414 Believe God // Nov 11, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Circumcision or Jewishness means nothing today. We are saved by grace, not race. The Gospel is equally open to all humans who repent. Israel carries no priviledge in that department. It is wrong for anyone to imagine that the Jews are God’s elect (without properly qualification of the statement). It is the Jews that believe in Christ and His atoning sacrifice at Calvary that alone are God’s chosen people. A Jew that rejects Christ cannot in any way be viewed (or described) as God’s elect. Salvation is open equally to the Jew and the Gentile today. Why? Because, “unto all and upon all them that believe … there is no difference” (Romans 3:22). The Jews that reject Christ today are not God’s chosen people; the Jews today that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour are God’s chosen people, along the Gentile Christians everyone that comes onto Christ in repentance belongs onto Christ. Who is excluded from coming to Christ? Those that reject salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The Jews that reject Christ have the same father as the Muslims that reject Christ - he is called Satan.
When it comes to salvation, “election” is exclusively identified with the redeemed – those that are saved by precious blood. There is no other effectual election known to sinful creatures since Adam. Man enters into God’s redemption through God’s sovereign grace and by the exercise of saving faith. No one in history has ever been saved on the ground of their nationality, family or heritage. Not now, in the past or in the future. It was always on the ground of personal salvation. Race, colour or status has absolutely no bearing upon salvation. That is repeatedly shown throughout the New Testament. It is therefore wrong to imagine that circumcision benefits men when it comes to salvation; the New Testament teaches otherwise.
415 Joyce // Nov 12, 2006 at 1:05 am
Esau,
So, you say you were talking to Victor, well I guess I’ll just have to take your word for that, since you didn’t mention his name. Now about the Messiah, Jesus is the Messiah he is the Savior. The first time he came he came as a lamb. This time he comes back as a lion, and he will rule with a rod of iron. If there is something else you want to know about the Messiah, then you need to be a little more specific.
416 CALLIE // Nov 12, 2006 at 2:02 am
..The Messiah that is to come has to be..
1..Jewish
2..must be a member of the the tribe of Judea
3..must be a direct male descendant of King David and Solomon
4..he must gather Jewish people from Exile and return them to Israel
5..He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
6..He will rule at a time of World Wide Peace
So far no one has arrived to fulfill all thses criteria…
we still wait and hope………
There Charles and Joyce! What do you think of that? I just copied that from a jewish person whose idea of the Messiah came from two Rabbis.
I have severe doubts of Jesus being a Jew. I don;t beleive it! And if Jesus is supposed to be building the Temple then why are plans being underway NOW? Shouldn’t you all be waiting for Jesus?
Now let me say for the record that in NO WAY does this jewish girl mention Jesus anywhere.
SHe does not claim that the Messiah is Jesus. If Jesus is a Jew and Jesus is the Messiah as you all believe then something is wrong here.
Why shouldn’t she say the same thing?
Tlhen a Christian girl came on and CORRECTED her and told her that Jesus was to be the Messiah.
THe Jewish girl just basically said ‘well okay, if you say so’.
Well then I ask you. When a chair is broken how do you fix it? Just wrap it with duct tape and think it’s all fixed?
I don’t think so! Someone is gonna sit on that chair and INJURE themselves terribly.
417 Joyce // Nov 12, 2006 at 4:14 am
Callie,
I’ll tell you what I think of that. I believe Jesus is the Messiah. I believe Jesus is a Jew. I believe Jesus is of the tribe of Judea, and of the lineage of David. I believe that Jesus is gathering the Jews from exile, and returning them to Israel. I believe the temple will be rebuilt, when God is ready for it to be rebuilt. And I believe that Jesus will rule during the millennial reign. And as a Christian I am waiting for his return. Whether the Jewish girl believes that Jesus is the Messiah, or not, doesn’t make any difference because he is. If she doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah, then the reason why she doesn’t believe is because she has been blinded, so the Gentiles would have a chance for salvation. And I am so very thankful to God for that chance. Jesus’ salvation is a gift from God that none of us deserve, but God is so generously giving us a chance to accept his gift anyway. So I will never show any disrespect to God, or to his Chosen People, for the sacrifice that Jesus has made for us all. I’m not really sure what the broken chair thing was all about, but anyway that’s how I feel about what you were asking.
418 Joyce // Nov 12, 2006 at 5:03 am
To: Don’t be deceived,
The rebuilding of the temple should be of no significance to you unless you are Jewish, other than it being a sign of the fulfilling prophesy to come. It has nothing to do with us being the temple of God. So I don’t understand why it bothers you so, except for the fact that when it is rebuilt, and when the antichrist comes on the scene, and sits in the temple, then I guess that would make what you believe, about the tribulation already happening a mistake.
419 Charles Wesley // Nov 12, 2006 at 5:11 am
You know it’s a funny thing ,but there has been other
attempts at building the temple or a temple but all attempts fail.
The Tower of Babel
420 Charles Wesley // Nov 12, 2006 at 5:54 am
God always confounds the efforts of errant temples as he confounded those building the Tower of Babel . I recall
Jesus talking about 18 people killed in the collapse of a temple under construction in the New Testament .A very similar thing happened 2 years ago. A temple being built fell on 18 people passing by on a sidewalk .When God clears off HIS Temple Mount and the construction proceeds to completion that would confirm the New Temple . Yes Jesus Is our Temple but we will go to that temple when we Die or he comes back and we are changed . Until then the Jewish temple will be the temple on earth . If you believe that GOD has control you have to know if the temple is built then it is by his consent. Remember the Tower.
421 Joyce // Nov 12, 2006 at 8:28 am
To: Believe God,
I agree that we are saved by grace. But what I’m talking about is, that the Jews were blinded, and they will have their blindness removed when Jesus returns, then they will have their chance at salvation. I believe they will have to be saved by grace just like every one else. But because God blinded them for our sake, that is why they get their chance when Jesus returns, and that is also why God warns us “Boast not against the branches.” Why else would he say that? There is no other reason for him to. God’s warning us not to be haughty, or highminded, or to think that we are better than they are, because we are not. We should be thankful that he did that for us, and not be bitter toward the Jews, because what happened to them was out of their control. It is all in God’s hands, and that is why we shouldn’t have the audacity to think, that we have anything to say about his decision on this matter. Because that would be sticking our nose in where it doesn’t belong, and he just might cut it off. So I believe I’ll just be thankful to him, and mind my own business.
422 CALLIE // Nov 12, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Well then what about the atheists who are not jews? Are they blinded to? Will they be saved like the jews? Will God be generous to those who sin, but are not of jewish lineage?
423 Believe God // Nov 12, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Joyce and Charles,
After reading your numerous posts, I can see you are a couple of couch potatos who just sit back and let the dying die. You are for the rebuilding of a third temple and actually seem to encourage this continued abomination of the unbelieving Jew and you are for the exterminating of 1/3 of the Jewish population. And, if I read you right you want to be popped out of here so that your skin can be SAVED FROM THE FATE OF ALL THOSE YOU WANT TO LEAVE BEHIND.
You two seem to be a couple of do nothing people who claim to know Christ. But Jesus said if you want to be my disciples you must follow after Me.
Maybe you would be ever so kind to tell us all here what it is you two are doing to bring the Jew out of such a fate and what you are doing to help them understand that building a temple is not a God thing but a religious thing of which God does not approve of.
424 Joyce // Nov 12, 2006 at 7:35 pm
Callie,
The Jews are the only ones that were blinded. As I have said before, I believe, that God has shown his generosity to us by blinding the Jews, so we the Gentiles could have our chance for salvation. Everyone will have a chance for salvation. It’s just that the Jews who were blinded by God for our sake until the “fulness of the Gentiles be come in,” and Jesus’ return, will then have their chance for salvation. Which means that we the Gentiles, our chance for salvation will be fulfilled when Jesus returns, and then the Jews blindness will be removed by God, and then God will give them their chance for salvation. And I believe that we all have to be saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. But I believe that it’s only fair that they get their chance for salvation, since they were blinded for us, don’t you? I surely wouldn’t want to keep anyone from their chance for salvation. Is the reason that you seem to be having a hard time with this, that you don’t think they deserve this chance? None of us deserve it. So I thank God daily for his generous gift of salvation, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and I will never take it for granted, because I am not deserving, but I am so very thankful. And that’s why I have hard time understanding people, that take their salvation for granted. They seem to think that it is owed to them, or that some how they deserve it. And also, there are those that think they are deserving, and that others aren’t. So I just thank God, that it’s not up to us to make those decisions, that they are his decisions, and his only.
God bless you.
425 Joyce // Nov 12, 2006 at 11:01 pm
To:Believe God,
You can insult us all you want if that makes you feel better. The rebuilding of the third temple isn’t my idea, it is not my decision to build it, or not. God is in control of that not me. Now, if you have a problem with letting God have control of the situation, then I suggest you take it up with him, and not with me ! You do seem to have a problem with wanting to be in control of everything. You seem to think that you know how to handle the situation better than God. I really don’t believe, that we should think so highly of ourselves that we believe, that we have the right to tell God whether the temple should be built, or not, or how he should handle the Jews. That is his decision. I really don’t understand what it takes to get that through to you, about this. But that does’t mean that I don’t care about the Jews. I care about them and everyone else but unless Jesus comes back before we are all going to die some day. But that is not the end if we are Christians then we will be with the Lord and for those who are not Christians unfortunately will be in hell. But if we don’t die before the Lord returns then I believe that Christians will be here for the first part of the tribulation. And so if we are here then we will be faced with either taking the mark of the beast and recanting our faith in Jesus or with death. And when that happens I will choose death because I will not take the mark or recant my faith in Jesus ! So I don’t know where you got the idea that we believe we will be popped out of here without possibly having to face death for our beliefs. And as far as what we do for the Lord you have no idea what we do. You don’t know us except for our comments that we have made on this blog and as far as I am concerned our comments have done more for the Lord than yours have. And why should I tell the Jews that rebuilding the temple is not a God thing when it is. It’s not my decision. What it’s not is an Allyn thing and so if you will ever realize that it’s not your decision to make you will be better off. Because as you say Jesus said if you want to be my disciples you must FOLLOW after me. Not try to LEAD ! And by the way, this sudden concern of yours for the Jews is very touching, or at least it would be if it was for real ! You are the one that has had a problem with them. You’re the one doesn’t believe that Jesus is a Jew, or that the Jews are God’s chosen people, or that they will have a chance for salvation when Jesus returns. So please, don’t pretend that you have this sudden concern for their welfare, when you don’t ! Oh and about all of our numerous posts that we have made, I think you need to go back and check out all of yours. You’ve made quite a few more than Charles has, and twice as many as I have, couch potato !
426 Believe God // Nov 12, 2006 at 11:34 pm
What’s this Allen thing you are talking about? Nevertheless, you have yet to show where it states that a rebuilt temple is God’s desire. You just do not know the New Testament and I think you are doing yourself one great disservice in claiming to understand when you do not. Anyway, what few posts I have made is good enough to get my point across. You may be so arrogant to think you know but until you read the Word for yourself and stop listening to prophecy teachers you will never now the real truth in this life. And don’t try to give me that song and dance that you only read your Bible because that would be a lie to say and the proof of that is the talking points you use that all premill/futurists use. You are so easy to figure out that I see no challenge here at all.
427 Joyce // Nov 13, 2006 at 9:53 am
Allyn,
I don’t know who you think you are fooling, but it certainly isn’t me. I’ve read enough of your many comments to know that you are Believe God. But if you want to keep up with this silly pretense that’s up to you. Anyway since you are such an authority on the New Testament, where does it say that the temple won’t be rebuilt? After all if I need to come up with the proof that it will be rebuilt, then I think that you should have to come up with the proof, that it won’t be rebuilt. And since you know the New Testament so well, that should be easy for you. But, you have yet to show where it states, that it won’t be rebuilt Anyway in 2nd Thessalonians chap. 2:1-4 it says:
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,”
“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”
Now in the first two verses, it tells about the coming of the Lord, and that the day of Christ is at hand. Then in the third verse it says, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS. And then it tells about the falling away, and about the son of perdition being revealed. Then in the fourth verse, it tells how the son of perdition sits in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God. So since these verses are referring to the time of the coming of the Lord, and about the son of perdition sitting in the temple of God. How do you think he will do this if there is no temple? The temple has to be rebuilt in order for him to sit in it. That’s pretty simple even for you to understand. And who are you to tell me that I don’t read my Bible. And you have the nerve to talk about me being arrogant. For your information I happen to read my Bible daily. And I don’t appreciate being called a liar. I never said that I only read my Bible. I have said that the Bible is all that I need. What’s so wrong with that? I do go to church also and my pastor preaches from the word of God. Everything that I read to do with the prophesies to come, and everything that my pastor preaches, is from the Bible. So what’s your point? And why should your opinion about my knowledge of the New Testament be so revered? I have yet to see that you are so knowledgable about it. In fact you haven’t shown, but a few references from the Bible, on the many posts that you have made. So I think that maybe you should read the Bible, so that you will be able to have more references to help you understand, and to know the real truth. And I am really so glad for your sake, that I am so easy to figure out. Because the easier it is for you to understand, the better it is. I wouldn’t want to be too difficult for you.
428 CALLIE // Nov 13, 2006 at 11:24 am
Joyce,
Now really. I simply do not think that salvation is not our responsibility. It is! We must PARTNER with God and Jesus. They just don’t do it ALL. We play a part too. We are responsible human beings. Therefore, to sin and sin blatantly and then expect to be forgiven by God and Christ after death or just before death is absolute LAZINESS and an ill-begotten way to live through Jesus our Lord.
It’s a blasphemy!
I just don’t believe that God would accept this. Sure God is generous, but it is up to us not to harden our hearts and make excuses for others who harden their hearts.
I just don’t believe this is what God is all about.
Do you really think that God wants this war?
429 Joyce // Nov 13, 2006 at 10:44 pm
Callie,
I,d like to know where I said that our salvation is not our responsiblity? What I was referring to is, that it is God’s decision, regarding the Jews. I have never said anything about it being okay to sin, and sin blatantly. As I have said before you must REPENT of your sins, and ask Jesus to forgive your sins, and to be your Lord and Savior. And if you are truly saved, then there should be a noticeable change in your life, from the way you were before. You should live your life for the Lord. You don’t just say that you are saved, and then do anything that you want. And I don’t believe that you can just go out, and sin all you want, and then go to a priest for confession, and think that makes everything alright. Because it doesn’t. That makes no sense at all. And I’m surprised that you being a Christian, you didn’t know that after you die, and if you aren’t saved, then it’s too late for salvation. That has to be taken care of before you die. And I’m not making excuses for others. I was just telling you about God’s concern, about the Jews. If you can’t accept that, then that’s between you and God. And I really don’t understand why you keep insinuating, that I believe that God wants this war. I have never said that he wants this war. I hope that this time, that I have made that perfectly clear to you.
430 Charles Wesley // Nov 14, 2006 at 1:07 am
It has been reported that the Syrians have begun an effort
to destabilize Christian Zionism to undermine the Jewish state . This is also the goal of the Muslim cause . This could entail attacks on the deity of Christ , the deception of seemingly authentic movies such as The Davinci Code based on an Islamic denial of his Death and Resurrection that will implant those thoughts only to be reinforced by Islamic propaganda no matter the disclaimer before the docudrama,
and to attack the very precepts of salvation . Some of that kind of activity has been evident here, Where better than the Internet . If I have received some of that activity to have taken place here ,then there must be a reason . I sometimes get the feeling that could be the agenda.
431 CALLIE // Nov 14, 2006 at 3:16 am
“As I have said before, I believe, that God has shown his generosity to us by blinding the Jews, so we the Gentiles could have our chance for salvation.”
I just don’t believe this. It makes so sense. Sorry. God blinds the jews? Why would God blind the jews? It’s as if he gives them carte blanche to sin. Since when? Since when does God ever do this? Not then and not today.
“And I’m surprised that you being a Christian, you didn’t know that after you die, and if you aren’t saved, then it’s too late for salvation.”
Am I to believe that we are too late for salvation after we die but nothing is too late for the jews?
Because this is the impression I am getting from everyone here!
I just said that indeed we should accept Lord Jesus our Saviour BEFORE. However, I mention AFTER because the impression you are all giving me is that Jesus will take care of the jews and forgive them anyway?
Did I misunderstand?
Let’s leave God and Jesus out of this for a second. Why are you so forgiving? Why do you assume there is ‘concern’ by God for the jews to the exclusion of others?
That’s a big impression I get from all of you.
I find it an abomination that they get special treatment and yet they are atheists. If they want to be atheists there should be no money going for a temple. I’m sure this temple doesn’t come cheap!
To me NONE of that makes sense. This is not how I was raised.
432 Joyce // Nov 14, 2006 at 7:53 am
Callie,
So you don’t believe, that God blinded the Jews, so the Gentiles could have a chance for salvation? Okay, so do you believe what the Bible says? Do you read your Bible? Because if you do, then you would know that in Romans11:7-12, what it says about God blinding the Jews, for the salvation of the Gentiles. I’ve given scripture after scripture about this, but if you want even read them, or believe them then, what’s the point of all this. It’s like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. I think that I explained it on post # 424 about as simply as I can, so if you didn’t understand it then, I really don’t know what to say. I do believe that the scripture is pretty easy to understand, but you have to read them in order to do that. Also you wanted to know why am I so forgiving, well for one thing it’s not my place to do any forgiving, and because to no fault of theirs, the Jews were blinded by God, for the salvation of the Gentiles. And if it hadn’t been for that, then we Gentiles, would not have had a chance for salvation. So I have nothing to forgive them for. And how can you say that God’s concern for the Jews, is an exclusion to others, after I explained to you about God blinding the Jews, and what it did for us? I believe that God, by doing what he did for us, has shown us as much concern, as he has for the Jews. And as far as the Jews getting special treatment, I don’t call it that, I call it fairness, because we are having our chance now for salvation, and they will have theirs later. What’s so wrong with that? I just don’t see why, you begrudge them their chance for salvation. Being a Christian, don’t you want to see as many people as you can, to have their chance for salvation? In order for them to be saved, they have to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior the same way we do. And who better than an atheist, should have the chance to change their ways for the Lord? Don’t you think that there are Gentiles that are atheists, should they not have a chance to change their ways for the Lord? Since you don’t seem to think that the Jews should, then why should they? That makes no sense at all. If you really want to know the truth about this, then read Romans chap.11. Also why should you care how much it will cost to rebuild the temple, it shouldn’t cost you anything, unless you want to donate money for it? The temple will be theirs not ours.
433 CALLIE // Nov 15, 2006 at 8:56 am
Joyce,
Do you have any idea how much the christian zionists donate to israel?
Have you?
Do you know that our health programs in the USA are sorely lacking?
Throwing money away on a temple is crazy when their is greater need right here within the borders of our own country.
Do you have any idea how the Katrina victims suffered?
Still they suffer. Why not give that money to the people from the Katrina distaster?
434 CALLIE // Nov 15, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Do you realize the rampant child abuse and poverty in america? The severe lack of social programs for mentally ill children?
Do you know that our past war veterans are still suffering miserabley as well as the elderly?
We need better programs for these people in their hopeless situations.
The billions that go to an ungrateful Israel is a SAD WASTE OF MONEY.
Didn’t Jesus say Love thy neighbor?
Didn’t Jesus say Love thy enemy?
Shouldn’t we be taking care of what is in our own backyard?
What is murdering a bunch of arab children going to do for us in the long run, except to cause us to be more bankrupt financially and spiritually?
What about OUR children?
435 Joyce // Nov 15, 2006 at 10:44 pm
Callie,
Why should I answer any of your questions, when you want answer mine? I wasn’t aware, that people had to check with you first before making donations. After all, it is our money not yours. I do believe, that people can have more than one charity, that they donate to. They are all just as important to me as they are to you. It seems to me, that you’re just trying to change the subject. So let’s get back to the main subject, that we were discussing. Did you read Romans 11:7-12? Because if you did, and you still say that God didn’t blind the Jews, then that can only mean one thing. That you don’t believe God’s words. There is no denying God’s words, that would be BLASPHEMY!! It is there in black and white print. You better be very careful about doing that. And also as I have said before, you better be careful about boasting against the branches. Because he says: “Be not highminded, but fear; For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” God tells us all about that in Romans 11:18-25. If you will read Romans chap.11 it will tell you everything, that you want to know about how God blinds the Jews, for the salvation of the Gentiles. It will also tell you how we the Gentiles, should not boast against the branches, which are the Jews. And about God’s covenant with them. And because you seem to think that you know how to handle the Jews better than God does. He also tells us in verses 33-35 about how he does not need our help with HIS decisions about the Jews. I just don’t understand how or why you think that you are so much better than God’s Chosen People. Because you’re not, none of us are, we have all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. And whether you believe, that they are God’s Chosen People, or not, makes no difference. It doesn’t change God’s decision that they are, as it says in Psalms105:6:”O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.” So there is God’s words in black and white print again, you either believe them ,or you don’t, that is up to you. Oh, and by the way, I care about ALL CHILDREN.
436 CALLIE // Nov 16, 2006 at 4:38 am
Oh, so you are saying that the so-called chosen are better than everybody else? Is that what you mean? That’s mighty rick to me. Too rich!
437 Joyce // Nov 16, 2006 at 7:44 am
Callie,
What I said was that you seem to think that you’re better than they are. But I can see from what you have written “the so-called chosen” that obviously you still don’t believe God’s words. So I won’t bother to quote you anymore scriptures. It’s just a waste of time. And I see no point in continuing with this discussion any further.
438 Israel News UpdatesRevelation Archives Carpe Diem | Revelation Archives Carpe Diem // Jul 1, 2010 at 8:32 pm
[…] – Zionist.comWhy the Syrian peace overture is not genuineSyrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Mualem Saturday indicated his nation is ready to resume some kind […]