Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Mualem Saturday indicated his nation is ready to resume some kind of peace process with Israel. That news got Israeli ultra-leftists, some foreign diplomats, and the mainstream media all excited.
But this purported peace overture must be seen as a deception, just like every one before it.
First of all, it was not made in a spirit of mutual responsibility and bilateral give-and-take. Rather, al-Mualem indicated the peace process must be resumed on Arab terms, which the international community will have to impose upon Israel and its American allies.
“If (the international community) has the desire and the decisiveness to do so, it could turn this into a real chance for peace, and fix the region’s problems. If the international community decides not to, because of Israeli and dominating US pressure, I am certain that this opportunity will be lost.”
Second, Damascus continues to harbor and assist organizations openly dedicated to the destruction of Israel, such as Hamas, which has its international headquarters in the Syrian capital. As Israel has communicated repeatedly, if Syria was truly interested in a true peace, it would end its relationship with such groups.
One must also keep in mind that had the Lebanon war ended differently - say, with Hizb’allah’s demise at the hands of Israel - Syria would not be talking “peace,” but urging the international community to censure Israel, or worse.
The Arab world is only ready to talk because it perceives Israel has having been defeated, or at least held at bay, by a far inferior military force. It’s peace overtures must be seen in this light.
There is an underlying belief throughout the Arab world that Israel is finally weak enough to be defeated militarily. The only thing that remains is for the Arabs to get their pieces set in advantageous positions. Israel’s control of the dominating Golan Heights and the central hill regions of Judea and Samaria pose nearly insurmountable defensive hurdles.
If Israel can be strongarmed through negotiations to surrender these areas, and its military is still perceived as too weak even to crush Hizb’allah, it will be only a matter of time (and a very short matter of time at that) until the next pan-Arab effort to annihilate the Jewish state.
Their appetites are whetted. Will the world help to set the table?
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437 comments so far ↓
1 Charles Wesley // Sep 26, 2006 at 1:05 am
First of all I don’t think that GOD will allow Israel be wiped off the map or moved anywhere else. I wonder is this a U.N. ploy ( yes I said U.N.) to move for the return of the Golan Heights. I know that the sides are chosen and a majority is against Israel. Bush should stay out of it.
2 Nathan // Sep 26, 2006 at 2:05 am
Ha the Golan will never be returned. What you lose in war you lose, so boo hoo Syria. Of course this is a UN ploy, here is a body that created a Jewish state with the intention of having it destroyed by the Arab armies. Well that didn’t happen and the UN is stuck with Israel, its” bastard child” if you will. Why has Israel been condemed more than any other nation at the UN? Now the true evil ones are the Syrian government officals that pretend they want peace with Israel. What a joke that the world ate up like candy. I love how al-Mualem says that peace under Arab terms would be the only way. The only peace terms the Syrians want are Israeli bodies floating in the sea, not gonna happen Syria. And I am glad that President Bush has not chickened out like he did with Abbas and talk to Syria. The only “peace talks” Syria needs is a laser guided bomb up the you know what. Start the draft I am ready.
3 Charles Wesley // Sep 26, 2006 at 2:46 am
Old Alabama may have read the Bible where it tells of Damascus being in utter ruin and would like to keep that from happening just in case .
4 Charles Wesley // Sep 26, 2006 at 2:48 am
So much for proof reading. Old Alibaba.
5 Victor Passenheim // Sep 26, 2006 at 7:13 am
The world is waiting only so gladly to set the table. Get rid of Israel, the greatest obstacle to peace in the world, and it’ll be cool runnings the rest of the way.
That’s the way these numb nuts think.
I’m going to wave my Israeli flag as much as I can - just to get in their face about it.
6 AMorton // Sep 26, 2006 at 7:28 pm
Q. to A Morton
So you say there is not a prophecy about the regathering of Israel, or anything.
Answer
No. What is being said is that the only regathering the Bible spoke of in the O.T. was the one that followed the return from the Assyrian/Babylonian Captivity.
All OT regathering verses (excluding the Genesis/Exodus ones that spoke of the regathering from Egypt)….all other OT regathering verses prophesied forward to the regathering from Assyria/Babylon that occured 2500 years ago….before the birth of Christ.
The only Gathering mentioned in the N.T.; and the only future gathering in respect to our modern day, is the gathering of Jesus’ followers to Himself when He appears in Power and Glory at the 2nd Coming.
Q. to A Morton
you say 1948 isn’t prophecied in the bible of the rebirth of the nation of Israel.
Answer
Correct.
Nowhere does the Bible mention 1948, nor does the NT mention another re-gathering of Israel anywhere in its future.
Israel now, today, in the N.T. era isn’t the gathering point.
Jesus Christ and His Gospel Message that brings freedom and eternal inheritance, possession, and everlasting life is the only gathering point remaining.
Q. to A Morton
Well…neither was the year when our Lord was born. We know though, it was 2000 yrs ago. We know the date it happned.
The prophecy Isah 9 : 6
” behold unto us a child was born ….ect ” was the birth of the “son” given as a date or was it given as to thing to watch? I think those people then saw the birth and declared it was fulfillment of that prophecy.
Answer
We know it happened not because you said so…or because an historian said so.
We know it because the N.T. quoted Isaiah 9:6 and said it was fulfilled a the time of Jesus’ birth.
Q. to A Morton
in the same light Israel was born in one day, 1948 may 14 ,
Isaiah 66 : 8
” who has heard of such a thing? who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her children.
Answer
Your analogy fails, because it has no New Testament Support, unlike the Isaiah 9 birth prophesy.
Had the NT quoted Isaiah 66:8 and said it would occur in the future, 1948 years after Calvary or anything remotely similar; you would have a case to argue.
However, the NT makes no mention of a future rebuirth or regathering of Israel.
Q. to A Morton
(fact, israel was born in one day and satan did not like it because he sent his people , 7 arabic countries , against them the very next morning to continue the slaughter according to them,Hitler did not finish) Do you know this?
They won’t finish it and never will because God always strenghtened Israel.
Answer
In the OT, God strengthened Israel because they followed and trusted and were obedient to Him.
1948 showed no obedience to God….for that government rejected and dismissed Jesus Christ. By doing so, they show God not to be their leader. The 1948 battle of Israel/Arabs was no different in God’s eye than the 1815 battle of France/Spain at Waterloo.
Satan loves to war against anyone who will war. Any when neither party loves God and rejects Jesus….even the better, for Satan gains even more souls as prizes!
Q. to A Morton
have you ever read the intire book of Ezekiel? the first few chapters are about the rebellion you alluded to concerning Israel. the last chapters are about the restoration of the “whole house of Israel”.(a remnant from every tribe)
Answer
Yep….and that restoration is not talking about our future, it was talking about Ezekiel’s future when they would be returned from Assyrian/Babylonian Captivity.
A remnant from every tribe did return then, circa 500 BC.
Ezekiel found its fulfillment centuries and centuries ago.
Q. to A Morton
Does God proclaim mercy on Israel?
Answer
Sure he does….He proclaimed it the loudest when He sent them His Son.
Q. to A Morton
I know the many pasages with this message but are you willing to search it out. Why don’t you take out a concordence like Young’s or Strong’s and look all the passages about Mercy. Some where you will see God has mercy on ” them”. ( seems you are very hard on them, you should read
Gen 12 : 3)
You will find that God is a God of Mercy first and Judgement second.
Answer
And God’s mercy today to the Jew and to the Nation of Israel is not found in land, is not found in battles won, is not found in a star-of-david flag, or any other worldly thing.
God’s mercy today is only found in Jesus.
Without Jesus, there is no mercy.
Don’t preach 1948 to the Jews of today as being an act of God’s mercy….preach the following instead!
Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour”
Jude 1:21 “Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
Jude 1:1 to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you”
2 John 1:3 “Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.”
I Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”
7 Charles Wesley // Sep 27, 2006 at 2:10 am
A Morton ,
Ezekiel 37 tells of GOD restoring Israel to their land and says all the land that he gave to Jacob. Latter in the chapter he says (forever). Unless there is something I have missed and I could have, then Ezekiel 37 speaks of this time frame. Then to Russia comes into play in Ezekiel 38.
8 AMorton // Sep 27, 2006 at 3:00 am
Hi Charles,
How long is forever in your estimation. For example, circumcision was a command given that it would be preformed forever. Yet we find:
Romans 2:25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
If an uncircumcised man (Gentile) keeps the law will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
Interesting statement. How can someone who is not physically circumcised be “counted as circumcision”? Sounds spiritual. Paul then, in this same context says: he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter. Paul says it’s not your physical descendants that make someone a “Jew” at least in the sense that God looks at the matter (Rev 2:9), it’s the heart. Gentiles have one of those, so they can be equated as a Jew. Paul is repeating the idea of verse 26 again in verse 29.
The land certainly was promised forever, I will give you that. The physical land came with a condition. that condition has always been obiedience. Deut. 28 clearly points out this condition. However, in Christ the promise is now through Him. The land is the kingdom as given in depth in Hebrews. Forever it will be our possesion. It is not conditional upon us except by one means and acceptance and that is that we come to Christ Jesus. Since the Son of God made this all complete in Him God’s promises have been fulfilled in Him as well.
Its really rather simple to understand.
9 Charles Wesley // Sep 27, 2006 at 3:34 am
A.M. I perceive that you take issue with the gathering of Israel back into their land and the building of the temple at this time or ma-by in the future. The Jew’s are God’s chosen people forever. That’s a long time! It is an amazing thing that GOD would keep his word after the Jews failed him so many times, but he will. Kinda gives me hope that he will keep me as many times as I have disappointed him. I have a Jehovah’s witnness friend that wants to disinfranchise the Jewish people from the favor of GOD.
10 AMorton // Sep 27, 2006 at 3:38 am
I am not a JW. I just read my Bible and take it for what it says. If you and I do not agree I can live with that, but I have done my part.
Blessings my brother in Christ
11 Charles Wesley // Sep 27, 2006 at 4:00 am
No offence intended A.M. The radicals are staging for the events in Ezekiel 38 & 39 now. With the Jews being in Israel now and Russia aligned with the Muslims , the stage is set for the event aforementioned. The Temple has to be rebuilt and the daily sacrifice started . From what I understand the daily sacrifice can begin under a tent when the temple is started ,But at some point it will be taken away and 1260 days latter the Abomination of desolation will occur, 45 days latter Jesus returns .Daniel 12 verse11&12. Going to be intense!
12 AMorton // Sep 27, 2006 at 5:02 am
No offense taken. I know there is all sorts of views out there. I am not offended by any except those opinions that are taught as truth. I will let you decide on your own whether or not they are opinions or truth.
13 Charles Wesley // Sep 28, 2006 at 3:48 am
A.Morton what is your thoughts about Revelations chapter 7 and chapter 14 similarities ?
14 AMorton // Sep 28, 2006 at 4:07 am
Hey Charles, I want to answer your question, if I can, but I need you to be more specific.
15 Charles Wesley // Sep 28, 2006 at 4:50 am
Read both and look at their similarities starting with the 144000 common to both chapters.
My thoughts concerning both chapters are,
1. Chapter 14 is a detailed version of chapter. 7
2.the 144000 will spread the gospel
3. the Antichrist has come and gone
4. the harvest (rapture) happens mid-trib per Rev.14 verse 14
5. Rev 7&14 are consistent with Daniel chapter 11 & 12
16 Charles Wesley // Sep 28, 2006 at 5:12 am
Let me move you out of your reality. Where did these virgin Jewish men come from considering that they have no guile in their mouth. First fruits for sure. The (guile) makes me think that they died very young not to have an opinion. After all they will preach the gospel the way Jesus wants it , not the way the various denominations do it now. So did GOD have a job in mind for all those male children 2 or so years old and younger that Herod The Great had killed while trying to kill Jesus. I would like to know how many died at his hand.
Just something that came to mind.
17 AMorton // Sep 28, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Hello Charles,
I do appreciate your thoughts and your questions to me. I will certainly respond to you in a few days but I do not want to post it here in this limited space. Therefore I will give you a link to where I have posted my answer to you. I want my answer to be thorough so it will take a little time to type it out in between my other responsibilities.
18 Charles Wesley // Sep 29, 2006 at 2:48 am
Hello A Morton
I should have also included the last half of Rev. 6 with chpt.7 to compare to chapter. 14. I am sure there are other
parallel chapters within the same books such as in Daniel.
Talk latter
19 Victor Passenheim // Sep 30, 2006 at 4:28 am
To Charles and A Morton,
How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?
In other words, what point is there in discussing arbitrary details in Scripture when you can’t even discern the incredible and central work that God is currently doing through the regathering of His chosen people.
Shame, shame.
20 AMorton // Sep 30, 2006 at 6:27 am
O give me a break Vic! Do you think God has only helped out the Jews? God loves us all and will do good as He sees fit. Do you believe, for example, that the United States had devine help in its becoming an independent nation? Do you have problems with examples like this or is Israel the only possible blessed nation? There is nothing in the NT that says Israel will be favored above all nations. Where in the NT is it stated that God will regather the Jews? You won’t be able to find it because the concept is not there. Do your research before you blurt out your nonsense in the future.
21 Charles Wesley // Sep 30, 2006 at 11:09 pm
To Victor ,
The nation of Israel nor the Jews has a monopoly on God.
Christian’s have a better ideal of what God is doing in Israel than most Jews. We have an advantage that enables us to see an overall view of the situation ,because we are not as involved and much of the prophesy is related to Jesus and his return. Israel doesn’t know it yet, but they are going to be liberated from Russia by the Lord Jesus. If they need help he is the one to call on. O.T. Ezekiel 38 & 39.
We Christians have received Jesus that was prophesied from Abraham on. We know that the Jews were blinded to Jesus’s first appearance on earth so we do not hold them responsible for having contempt for the Christian faith. We are endeared to them because they are still God’s chosen people. The Old Testament is not out of date, in fact many prophesies are being fulfilled even today. God said in Ezekiel 37 that he would open their graves and breath his spirit into them and they would be with him ever more. God will gather all Jews into Israel.
22 AMorton // Sep 30, 2006 at 11:48 pm
Charles, you said “God will gather all Jews into Israel.” Are you certain of that? I mean, who really is a jew? Does anyone know? How about the people of the world who have converted to judism? How much of Abraham’s blood do they have. How much of Abraham’s blood does it take to be a Jew? What measure does God use for this?
John the Baptist said that God could make sons of Abraham from the rocks meaning it is not of the flesh that we are called sons of Abraham. Jesus was told by the Pharisees and Sadducees that Abraham was their rightful father, but Jesus then said if you are truly sons of Abraham, then why do you try to kill me.
No, it has nothing to do with whether one is a jew or not but rather our relationship to God through the Seed of Abraham, Jesus the Christ.
No, the jew will not be gathered to Israel. Yes some are there but 7 million are not, and those are just 7 million who think they may be Jews. What of the millions who have Jewish blood in them and do not know that they do? The people who God is calling are those like you and me - all believers on the Lord Jesus Christ. We have been called to the Holy land which is a spiritual place. it is a Holy place for a royal priesthood of people - US.
Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
23 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 1:00 am
To A. Morton
2nd Thessalonians chapter. 2 verse 4 tells of the False Prophet (antichrist) will sit in the temple of God .
1. The Temple of God will exist at that time in the future.
2. Only the Jews would have any interest in building it.
3. The two witnesses will be there . thus Temple/Jews Rev.11.
4.God has not cast out the Jews . He just not used them to propagate Christianity. Romans chapter. 11 verse 11—-36.
24 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 1:40 am
Who is the temple of God? Isn’t it the church? Who “falls away”? Isn’t it those who were of the church? Could it be anyone else in the context of 2 Tess 2:3? Doesn’t a falling away naturally indicate that Satan has entered in? The verse you have given nowhere says that a temple will be rebuilt. In fact if we were to take this literally, and it may well be, then we should also know that at the time of Paul writing this to the church at Thessolonica, that the temple was still standing. We also know that in 70AD, some 40 years after Jesus foretold of it destruction, the temple was certainly destroyed by the Roman armies. The Roman emperor certainly did set himself up over the temple as if he were God.
Charles, it seems to me that the burden of proof is on you to show us where it says that a third temple will be built. I know that there is a temple mount movement to rebuild the temple and it has in fact been attempted numerous time throughout history, but God has not said it will happen. I will go by what god says.
25 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 3:52 am
Jesus will be the last temple. But that will not be on this earth. On this earth at the end of this dispensation the (Temple of God ) a stone building will be built. It will be built on Mt. Morriah the only place it was permitted to be built. The Jews will be able to start the sacrifice when it starts. The Dome Of The Rock will have to come down as it covers the court yard where the sacrifices were made. All of these things are going to happen to fulfill Gods plan. The New Testament was not talking about the past in that chapter but the future about the coming of Christ and what to look for.
Ezekiel talks about the Russia coming against Israel and Jesus coming and destroying the occupying forces. That also tells you that the Jews are supposed to be there.
26 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 3:55 am
Where did the bible say the temple would not be rebuilt this time?
27 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 4:23 am
Charles, really! You mean to say this is the reason you believe that there will be a third temple because the Bible doesn’t speak against it? Well, the NT is full of examples showing why there won’t be a third temple. Do you believe God is going to nullify the sanctifying, atoning sacrifice of His Son and reinstate the sacrificial OT system? Does the NT point to more sacrifice or does it point to the Final one in Christ?
28 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 4:34 am
God’s plan was fulfilled at the cross.
Russia is never mentioned in the Bible.
Rev. Chapters 1 through the 1st part of chapter 20 are about AD70.
Ezekiel speaks of the time of the Babylonian destruction of jerusalem, the exile and the return from exile.
To help you out a little bit let me suggest that you listen to a series of lectures on the olivet discourse at my website. The link is http://www.undergodproductions.com/OlivetDiscourse.html and it will knock your socks off and give you all the Bible references you need.
29 Charles Wesley // Oct 1, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Stick to the bible you will be better off. Frankly you can find any interpretation you want on the computer because there is no one to edit information.
30 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Yes, I agree. But what do we have Bible teachers for if not to teach. I take it you are opposed to going to church, meaning you are not a regular attender of a church of God in your local area? I take it you have not been influenced by any teaching on any subject of the Bible? I take it you have received all knowledge of the Bible from your own reading of Scripture without any outside help? I take it you have never read the story of Phillip and the Ethiopian?
Fine…stay in you little box.
31 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 5:25 pm
in other words Charles, don’t be a hypocrite. If you have listened or read even one commentary of the Bible, you are guilty of the very thing you are charging me of. I hate this arrogant thing in people like you.
32 AMorton // Oct 1, 2006 at 6:28 pm
You know, when I minister to Mormons, which is my personal ministry, I run into the same fence as I seem to be running into with you Charles. The Mormon does not want to hear or learn anything that may threaten their own world view. This also is what I find with Christian Zionists - who all happen to be Pre-trib holders or dispensationalists. Whenever their view is threatened by another believer who can show scripturally why the a-mil/preterist view is of Scripture (I am not a full preterist because I can show where the 2nd coming of Christ has yet to happen), I get this song and dance that if you only “Stick to the bible you will be better off.” as if we who read the Bible and hold some view other than yours are somehow inferior to you. Charles, by you holding this against me, you have in affect, shut and locked the door of opportunity that may be a calling to you from God to come to better understanding.
However, I will be around if you want to reopen that door.
Blessings
33 Charles Wesley // Oct 2, 2006 at 4:44 am
2 . I believe the harvest will be after the Antichrist is shown for who he really is - plus 45 days per Daniel 12. Rev.14 — 2nd Thess Rev.7
4.I believe that God has started bringing back the Jews to build that temple ( that is nothing to a Christian but a footnote
in the fulfillment of Gods prophesy concerning the END.
7 .I believe that Jesus is a Jew and he is the King of the Jews and will be my King. And the 144000 will witness to the Jews , all of them that were blinded so that the Gentile’s
could receive Jesus. He will open their graves and put his spirit into them and they will live again and he will save them.
This is said in Ezekiel 37. It has not happened yet. I suggest if you have a problem with that you should see the author.
8 . The only people that I know about that have a problem with the Jews are Muslims , Atheist and Jehovah’s Witnesses
9.I go to a Baptist church ,but all denominations except the JW’s agree on the very things I have espoused. Even the Turbin heads agree that the the geographical area known as Russia will come against Israel as the bible said. Thus the gathering.
I am saved by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ and await his return and will not be swayed by a commentary.
I guess Billy Graham , John Hagge ect. needs to check in with you because they must be wrong too!
May the Holy Spirit guide you . Peace and Good Will Brother
34 AMorton // Oct 2, 2006 at 5:15 am
I happen to belong to a baptist church as well but yet we disagree.
35 Victor Passenheim // Oct 2, 2006 at 10:39 am
AMorton,
I don’t know how much this will “help”, but here are just a few verses dealing with the promised ingathering of the Jews to the Promised Land by God:
Deuteronomy 29, 30
Psalm 106:47
Isaiah 11
Isaiah 13
Isaiah 27
Isaiah 34
Isaiah 40
Isaiah 43
Isaiah 49
Isaiah 56
Isaiah 60
Isaiah 62
Isaiah 66
Jeremiah 3
Jeremiah 23
Jeremiah 29:11
Jeremiah 31
Jeremiah 32
Ezekiel 11
Ezekiel 20
Ezekiel 28:25,26
Ezekiel 34
Ezekiel 36
Ezekiel 37
Ezekiel 38
Ezekiel 39:28,29
Joel 3
Micah 4
Zephaniah 2:10
Zechariah 12
Zechariah 14
Revelation 20
Notice the intimate, special, exclusive relationship the LORD will establish with His people. Notice how overarchingly central this is to His purposes and desires.
It is amazing to me that you could have missed out on this, one of the central messages in Scripture. I didn’t even go into the NT, but the spirit and attitude with regards to Israel is one and the same with that of the OT.
Charles is right, stick to the Bible.
36 Victor Passenheim // Oct 2, 2006 at 1:07 pm
To Charles,
Clearly the nation of Israel does not have a monopoly on God. God is the only one with a monopoly - over all that He has created.
Granted, Christians should have a good idea about what God is doing in Israel, but if they do they certainly don’t behave like it. Or they are purposefully trying to become a stumbling block to the Jewish people. On the flipside, you should speak to some religious Jews sometime. You might be surprised at just how well they can discern the times.
The “Christian” President, George Bush, has done a splendid job of dividing up the Promised Land which God admonished never to do. Christian organizations have done very little to show their support for Israel, and in fact, several denominations (Anglicans, Presbyterians) are divesting from Israel.
With friends like that, who needs enemies. And if you’re an enemy to God’s people, how do you think God takes that?
To be sure, the Church’s record is not so great these days, but it has been even worse historically. I remember you mentioning that “…we do not hold them responsible for having contempt for the Christian faith. We are endeared to them because they are still God’s chosen people.”
This a strange comment and, also, out of touch with the Spirit of God.
First, more than Islam, the Church has a terrible and bloody record with regards to the Jews.
Second, we are not endeared to them because “they are still God’s chosen people”, but rather because GOD is ‘endeared’.
More tender pronunciations of God’s love cannot be found anywhere in Scripture than what He expresses towards His chosen people, Israel. And there are many.
Finally, it should be said that despite our treacherous record historically, God has still seen fit to choose a remnant among Gentile believers that He has kept faithful to Himself.
The “Church” fancies itself too much. Yes, Israel has a dismal record with God, but the Church somehow fails to see how terribly poor its record has been. If not for the grace of God…
Also, I wanted to comment on your statement
“4.I believe that God has started bringing back the Jews to build that temple ( that is nothing to a Christian but a footnote
in the fulfillment of Gods prophesy concerning the END. “
…compare that with Romans 11:11,12. (I think Paul has a different take). Anything in Romans 11.
Also, the following “footnotes” seem to have been pretty important, because God made many of them throughout Scripture and some deal directly with the Church.
Quoting from http://www.gotquestions.org/end-times-Israel.html, the following verses deal with Israel and the end times:
There will be a mass return of Jews to the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 30:3; Isaiah 43:6; Ezekiel 34:11-13; 36:24; 37:1-14).
The antichrist will make a 7-year covenant of “peace” with Israel (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 9:27).
The Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 11:1).
The antichrist will break his covenant with Israel. Worldwide persecution of Israel will result (Daniel 9:27; 12:1, 11; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 24:15, 21; Revelation 12:13). Israel will be invaded (Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
Israel will finally recognize Jesus as the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10). Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered (Jeremiah 33:8; Ezekiel 11:17; Romans 11:26).
All of this makes me wonder how many “footnotes” the Church is basically overlooking.
37 AMorton // Oct 2, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Vic, I could refute your claim on every one of your scripture proofs. Would it help you to understand if I did? I don’t think so.
38 CALLIE // Oct 2, 2006 at 5:08 pm
But Victor, you do not speak for God. And how can you say the Christians have not done enough for the Jews? I’ve seen plenty that the Christians have done for the Jews and Israel. From what I understand there isn’t supposed to be another Temple built. Where is this Temple suppose to be built? In place of the aqsa mosgue or somewhere else in Jerusalem? I don’t understand this at all.
And AMorton, could you please refute some of Vic’s claims to some of his scriptures (or all of them, if you have the time) because for my own personal information, I would like to understand better. Thank you.
Charles, I don’t think it is in your best interest to be so defensive with AMorton. We can all learn from somebody. A closed door and a closed mind will not further us to peace and a benevolent place in God’s World, although God is very generous and forgiving.
Please, AMorton, I would like to hear the refutations.
39 CALLIE // Oct 2, 2006 at 5:18 pm
How does the OT and the NT confirm each other?
How can one say the the Church has a bloody history with the Jews, when after all, it was the Jews who murdered Jesus Christ? This bears more weight to me, I believe.
I could never understand how Jesus could ever be a Jew if He was trying to teach Jews not to transgress - to change their evil ways as he saw it, therefore how could he himself be Jewish? However, if someone could explain this to me, I’m willing to listen.
Peace.
40 AMorton // Oct 2, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Callie, I really do appreciate you coming to stand along side me. It can be a lonely world out there. I will, for your benefit refute the given scriptures as evidence by Victor. I am busy, no doubt, but I will earnestly work on it this week.
41 Charles Wesley // Oct 2, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Victor I Have to admit , I totally agree with you. Yes President Bush did blunder concerning Israel. Yes there have been some Christians that blame the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus. Although I am not aware of any personally . But I disagree with you about Christians being a stumbling block to the Jews. If the Christians didn’t try to keep people in power that will back Israel you might be with out a friend and have a whole lot of enemies. Please surprise me with the Jewish perspective of the events and times . I would love to know what they see. I am sure that most Christians would love to know. Is there a site where this is presented. As far as the foot note statement I was saying that only the Jews that still keep the Law Of Moses will be interested in rebuilding the Temple of God. The Christians believe in the grace of God through Jesus Christ and there is no other offering for sin. Yes we are very interested in the Temple construction primarily for the confirmation of prophesy being fulfilled. As for your quotes we are very aware of those indisputable truths.
Call the dogs off–believe it or not we are on the same side.
Victor do you live in Israel?
42 Charles Wesley // Oct 2, 2006 at 11:53 pm
Callie ,
The OT back in Genesis told of a promise that God made to Abraham at Mt. Morriah when God found that he would give his only son as a sacrifice , as God ask him to do. Also the OT tells of this promise called Jesus The new testament confirms this with the coming of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection. Prophets in the old testament tell of events that the NT expound on and are now and never before possible. Jesus came from the lineage of Jesse ,and his mother was a Jew.
Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of the Old Testament and did not make it outdated. In-fact the Old Testament prophesy is coming true today. The Bible is the word of God and he didn’t make a mistake in the OT and decide to change it with a reissue called the NT. They are one testament with two dispensations. The last being the dispensation of Grace through Jesus Christ.
43 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 2:54 am
Charles,
I live in Florida and I am a Christian, not a Jew.
So you say President Bush did a “blunder” concerning Israel. I would say that no President in American history could have done anything worse for his nation than the curse that George Bush has brought on us.
To divide God’s promised land and to give part of it to a terrorist entity with no rightful claim to that land, an entity whose aim is to annihilate Israel and which plots murder on a daily basis. The “Roadmap” solution proposed by President Bush will leave Israel with indefensible borders. This is a fact. And what does Israel, or for that matter, the world get for this. More terrorism. You call this a “blunder”. I call it treason.
What does Scripture have to say about this?
What has the Church done about this? Where is the condemnation and protest from the Christian world?
You should know that while America has been the closest thing to a friend that Israel has had, historically, America has also been there at every point in history to pull Israel back from outright victory over its implacable enemies.
So, if you would like to know what Jews think about the end times, I suggest the following website:
www.arutzsheva.com (also israelnationalnews.com)
Any one their radio shows in English are excellent. They are downloadable or you can tune in live.
I personally like to listen to the Tovia Singer show.
Check out the following show:
http://www.israelnationalradio.com/Asx/tovias-th-1.asx
Many other goodies here. But I would encourage you to call in live and ask questions. It’s easy to get through and they love the calls.
And finally, as far as the Christian community being a stumbling block to Israel (if what I’ve said so far has raised some eyebrows - “friends” don’t treat others this way), do a search on:
Anglican church divests from Israel
and
Presbyterians divest from Israel
Finally, you can do a search on the persecution of the Jews by both the Catholic Church and Protestants.
Not a pretty picture.
So we agree, but not really.
44 AMorton // Oct 3, 2006 at 3:44 am
Callie, here is a link with the first installment of responses to the text proofs Victor has given. Feel free to check back throughout the next week or two.
http://www.undergodproductions.com/ToVictor.html
45 Charles Wesley // Oct 3, 2006 at 3:48 am
Victor,
I didn’t vote for Bush . I don’t like Bush , but I did like him giving Israel as much time as he could. If Israel were to have been too victorious this last time Syria or Iran may have entered the war. Iran was making trial runs I believe to come through the Turkish airspace and down to Israel with fully loaded fighter bombers. I am thinking to avoid US fighters.
This is a possibility I thought of when I heard that Israel contacted Turkey to inform them that Iranian jets were approaching their airspace. Also I believe Israel wanted to stop where they were this time.
As for those churches ,we don’t need them . The Baptist churches are for Israel all the way ,but you know that.
I also live in Florida
God’s will be done
46 CALLIE // Oct 3, 2006 at 4:31 am
Thank you, AMorton, I will definitely check out the site. And I will check back from time to time.
Victor, what Charles says is quite right about Bush. Bush has helped the Jews and Israel, considerably. It is his administration that sits in the UN Council that votes vetoes in favour of Israel. No country has been so generous to the Jews and Israel, other than the United States of America and you should know this. If it hadn’t been for us Christians and I will most definitely include the Catholics and the Protestants - do not forget, John F. Kennedy was a Catholic and he made a splendid and dynamic speech about Israel and how it would be the USA’s priority to fight for and defend Israel. I can most assuredly copy paste that speech for you if you like, Victor.
As I was saying, if it hadn’t been for the Christian people, and I will include the Prostestants and Catholics, the Jews would not be where they are today and there would be no Israel today. The Jews need the Christians - they cannot get far without Christians. We are over 2 billion strong. It is foolish for any criticisms to leak out against Christians.
I would like to know what you mean by persecutions done by the Catholic Church towards Jews, Victor. I would like for you to give me evidence of this. Direct me to a link, if you must.
As for the present time, I haven’t seen any persecutions of Jews by Christians in the past 60 years. You will only anger the Christian folk with talk like this.
As for the Presbyterians, c’mon. They hardly have any power. What do you hope to gain by showing your anger against all Christians by pointing out a handful of Presbyterians?
Do not forget what Bush has done for the Christian Right and the Christian Right has done for Bush. These two are great powers for Israel! It saddens me that you do not acknowledge this. The Christian Right has a place in the White House and the White House always welcomes them.
The Christian Right and many other Christians work very hard and have a lot of faith in our Country and so it goes with Israel.
47 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 4:47 am
You gotta love the insanity of it all.
If any other nation were being bombarded by a terrorist group to the extent that Israel was, there wouldn’t be an acceptable “timetable” during which the attacked nation would be allowed to respond.
How hypocritical. To be sure Israeli PM Olmert certainly played a good in hand in having Israel fail.
If the same situation were happening to us, we would demand the destruction of the terrorist group and we would not tolerate outside criticism to the way we handled this crisis.
But hey, no skin of our backs. And after all, their our allies! Jewish blood is cheap. Why be inconvenienced.
Truth, justice, and the American way triumph again!
The history books will show you that when Israel is given free reign (and their leaders don’t get in the way) they have gone on to soundly defeat their enemies, often greatly outnumbered. So I’m not afraid of Iran and Syria getting involved in the conflict (weren’t they involved anyways - where do you think all of the ammunition, training came from).
48 CALLIE // Oct 3, 2006 at 4:51 am
Another thing Victor,
I really do not believe that Bush will divide the Holy Land. If he has said this, and I never heard anything like this - do not forget: Bush has mentioning many times about creating peace in Israel and its Territories. But has he really done so? No. He stalls. And he has always stalled on such an issue. I feel that this is one of Bush’s strategies, don’t you think?
Well thank you, Charles for the information, and I will ponder it. But if Jesus was a Jew, shouldn’t we then all be Jews instead of Christian?
I appreciate you bringing some of the likenesses of the OT and the NT. But when will this Temple be built? Is there any mention and the circumstances surrounding this situation? Does the OT or the NT agree on this new Temple, specifically? If it’s easy for you to direct me to a link, that will be fine.
Again, Victor, I don’t see the Christians becoming a stumbling block in the way of the building and completion of the Holy Land. Look at the Christain politicians in the UK and the USA. Look at the work of Dennis Prager.
I think your words are too harsh. I agree with Charles. Bush gave Israel plenty of his time, and plenty of support. Don’t forget. Bush has shut out talks with Iran and Syria time and time again, especially recently. Let’s say that Bush does have talks with these countries: Do you really think he’ll listen to them? I don’t think so. Bush will stall again, it’s his strategy.
Thank you, again AMorton I will look into the link.
Blessings and Peace to all.
49 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 6:09 am
Callie,
Dividing the land - it’s called the Road Map.
Stalling? Why stall? Why not show some backbone, any kind of backbone and say: “I will not cede land to a nation which has broken every “peace” agreement with Israel and has shown and said in no uncertain terms, time and again, that they only want to destroy Israel”
You don’t “stall” in the face of tyranny. You defeat it.
You don’t have to be a “Christian Zionist” to show the most minimal of integrity and morality.
Furthermore, how can one even broker a deal with terrorists? That’s what Hamas and Fatah are, and the “beautiful” Palestinians voted them into office.
Callie, you’ve got a lot of thinking to do. I would highly recommend you check out the radio talk shows at israelnationalnews.com
They take live calls gladly. Ask them questions. I guarantee that you’ll get information here that you just won’t find anywhere else.
In fact, ask Ryan Jones (the blog author) what he thinks. You might be surprised.
50 Todd // Oct 3, 2006 at 7:24 am
I just finished reading this dialogue and find it fascinating! I try to avoid getting drawn into these seemingly endless online debates (e.g. pre/post trib rapture, etc.), but I’m going to make an exception by throwing in some food for thought.
First, I’ll let you know up front what my perspective is, but will also point out that I do my best to keep an open mind to opposing interpretations of scripture. Historically, I’ve been taught and held the pre-trib rapture belief. Recently, I find myself moving toward the belief of a mid-trib/pre-wrath rapture. Not to say that this is a debate about that subject, but I bring it up only to make this point…
Isn’t much of this debate really irrelevant in the eternal scheme of things? If we all hold true to our Lord’s greatest commands - to love one another and keep doing His work until His return, isn’t that all that really matters? Whether I’m swept away, protected or martyred before, during, or after the great tribulation, the result is the same. I’ll be with my Heavenly Father forever. Whether or not a temple is going to be rebuilt, just doesn’t matter to me. Whether or not the current gathering of Jews in the mideast is prophecied or not, isn’t gong to make me, or I dare say anyone who truly has Christ in their heart stumble. The most important thing for all of us, Jews, Israelites, and Christians to remember is that - we know how the story ends…. we feast with Him forever.
I think many of us (and I include myself) are going to be surprised how the details of the story unfold as we get close to that final result. I think we’d all agree it’s all at our doorstep and many of us will witness it ourselves.
Stepping back from this and other online escatology debates I’ve seen, I wonder why God chose to leave just enough ambiguity in His Word for so many of us to hold our truths to be so absolute, and yet so opposing to fellow believers, who love the very same Creator just as much. Oftentimes, both sides quote the very same scripture to argue their point! It reminds me of our U.S. Cival War, when both North and South were absolutely convinced God was on their side. Rhetorically, I ask how all the debate serves His purpose? Someday soon, I believe we’ll find out. If nothing else, I guess it draws us into more scripture study.
Now to shift gears and throw out some thinking/research food for you online theologians. You may have noticed in a previous paragragh, I distiquished between Jew and Israelite. Remember that hundreds of years before Christ was on this earth, the 10 northern tribes of Israel had been destroyed and dispersed by the Assyrians? Apparently, all that was left of Abraham’s seed in the promised land was the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and a remnant of the Levites. The reason I bring this up is because of the original text of this debate revolved around the 1948 restoration of the state of Israel.
Whether prophecied or not, I think we’d all agree it is not currently a complete nation in its borders, in its people or in its spirit. The eternal covenant given to Abraham is not complete with this state as it exists today. Whether or not you believe the temple must be rebuilt, we still have the 10 “lost tribes” to deal with. Of course, WE don’t have to deal with it, God does - and will, to keep His covenant. Only the returning Christ can bring it back to completeness.
I bring all this up because I recently finished a fascinating ebook found at http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/US/
I’m still absorbing its content, so I don’t promote it as absolute truth, but certainly worth a read for anyone with an open mind to what God wants to reveal to us. It is backed by a lot of scripture and documented history. I encourage all of you to give it a read and would enjoy reading your thoughts/comments.
One more point - question I guess for A. Morton. Something I struggle with as I read your interpretation of scripture that maybe you can clarify. Your mention of most prophecy already taking place, assumes there is no duality in what was written, would that be a fair statement? I’ve always been taught that many (not all) OT, and NT prophecies have both near and distant relevance. Much biblical and post-biblical history seems to bear witness to this. The most prominent example, being the dual coming of the Messiah Himself… fulfilled in the past, and to be fulfilled again in the future. This is one of the reasons the Jews to this day have stumbled on Him. Your thoughts?
May God richly bless you all!
Todd
51 Victor Passenheim // Oct 3, 2006 at 8:31 am
Todd, I agree with you for the most part, but my point is that it does matter where you stand. Today, in particular, anti-Semitism is increasing world wide. Did you know that recently (within the last year) there was a survey in Europe which asked which country in the world is the greatest obstacle to peace? Respondents answered that the greatest obstacle to peace in the world was Israel.
Not Saudi Arabia, not Iran, not North Korea. Israel.
If your heart is for Zion, as it should be if you’re a Christian (pray for the peace of Jerusalem…), and if you see how the whole world coddles terrorists, defers to the “religion of peace” Islam, and castigates Israel at every turn even while her citizens are being indiscriminately murdered and maimed, then the suffering of the Jewish nation should matter to you.
I believe the future of the Church and the Jewish people is intertwined. I look on my Jewish friends who love Israel as not just friends, but as brothers and sisters. So this “divorced” mentality is just not in line.
I can see the hand of God at work there in a central way that is for the good and welfare of the rest of the world, and to fulfill His purposes on the earth.
Israel is central to God’s heart and desires. He is zealous for her. It should be central to us and drive our zeal, as well. They are key and they are family - God’s family, and that means a whole lot to me.
52 AMorton // Oct 3, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Hi Todd,
You said:
“One more point - question I guess for A. Morton. Something I struggle with as I read your interpretation of scripture that maybe you can clarify. Your mention of most prophecy already taking place, assumes there is no duality in what was written, would that be a fair statement? I’ve always been taught that many (not all) OT, and NT prophecies have both near and distant relevance. Much biblical and post-biblical history seems to bear witness to this. The most prominent example, being the dual coming of the Messiah Himself… fulfilled in the past, and to be fulfilled again in the future. This is one of the reasons the Jews to this day have stumbled on Him. Your thoughts?”
No need to assume anything within my comments. I state a paticular type of reasoning based on what the Bible teaches in whole. I certainly am not infalliable so I do know I may be mistaken on what I think but where it appears obvious to me then this is what I base my comments on. I do believe there are several cases of dual fulfillments but I do not want to go beyond what can be substantiated, whether proven by history or proven specifically in the Bible, or both. We also have to be careful with translations and apparent bias. NIV is notorious for this. I love little nuggets of the revealing nature of God. One such example is the story where Jesus is selection His disciples. He comes to Nathanael and says in
John 1:51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
Where else do we find in the Bible this happening where the angels of God are ascending and descending? The story of Jacob’s dream and angels ascending and descending on a ladder. Is it possible that this was a depiction of what Jesus verified centuries latter? This has been just one example. Since the Bible harmonizes with itself I find this to be totally probable. These types of things are waiting to be found if one studies thourouly.
As I proceed with http://www.undergodproductions.com/ToVictor.html you will be able to read even more examples like this. However when one begins to read into something that is not there and then build a whole different theology apart from what is intended, gain many followers to that theology, preach it from pulpits, write books on it, watch it on TBN, then this is how we get to movements as Zionism, Pre-tribulation rapture, third temple building, Kingdom of God is future, Christ sitting literally on the throne of David for a literal 1000 years, and so on.
53 CALLIE // Oct 3, 2006 at 6:20 pm
This is what AMorton says:
“However when one begins to read into something that is not there and then build a whole different theology apart from what is intended, gain many followers to that theology, preach it from pulpits, write books on it, watch it on TBN, then this is how we get to movements as Zionism, Pre-tribulation rapture, third temple building, Kingdom of God is future, Christ sitting literally on the throne of David for a literal 1000 years, and so on.”
Now what AMorton says above does seem to make quite a bit of sense. I believe we shouldn’t try to read into “what isn’t there”.
Victor, I believe that you are being a bit on the dramatic side. How do you know that there aren’t more people on the side of Israel as opposed? You are just quoting a survey of those showing negativity, but these people are not the whole world.
My God, Victor, look what the USA and Great Britain and CANADA did for Israel in July! They stood firm with Israel against Lebanon! How much proof do you need?
Another note, Victor. Saudi Arabia is hardly caring of the Arab nations around it? Look at Sudan! What did it do for Lebanon? NOTHING. Just talk. Do you not see the strategy?
Victor, when I say that Bush was stalling, I meant this as a positive for Israel, not a negative. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
I do pray for the Peace in Jerusalem, believe me. But I do not see the coddling of terrorists. Again, you are being over dramatic. Doesn’t Israel have the Hamas politician in their jails. Again Victor, something was done about them and still you are crying. Indeed something has to be done about terrorism and terrorists, but how do you know something isn’t being done? The USA, Canada, UK are doing what they can and I have seen this.
54 AMorton // Oct 3, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Victor, I want to add another comment to your dual fulfillment question. As I have said, dual fulfillment is not uncommon in the Bible. The caveot is however that all of it has been completed in Christ Jesus. There is no other fulfillment left to accomplish. Now having said this I can hear your thoughts and one of them would be “Has Jesus yet returned a 2nd time? the Bible says no. That is yet to be fulfilled. Has Jesus loosed Satan for the little season and then cast into the firey pit? No that has not yet happened. Are we living in the time after the return of Christ? No, obviously that has not occurred. So there you have it in a nutshell. All but the last few mentions have happened. No seven year tribulation (or at least the Bible doesn’t speak of it. No Third Temple, or at least the Bible doesn’t speak of it. No regathering of physical Israel in the last days, or at least the bible does not speak of it. I could go on.
55 Charles Wesley // Oct 4, 2006 at 2:41 am
Welcome Todd,
The Temple being built the last time. 2nd Thessalonians Chapter. 2 verse4 specifically explains that the false prophet (Antichrist) will sit in the Temple of God and show himself as God. Thus the temple gets there some how! It has not existed for 1936 years . This happens before the return of Jesus. Daniel tells of this in a less descriptive way in chapter 11 verse 31. Check out chapter. 12 verses11 thru- 13.56 the Jews
are going to build the Temple you can bank on that. The Dome of the Rock will come down when God is ready and the construction will begin. When the antichrist sets in the Temple as he is (God ) his true identity will be revealed and not before. Daniel 12 verses 11 thru 13 tells of a period of time of 45 days before the return of Christ . This is backed up by Revelations chpt.14 .
JESUS is a Jew. Matthew chapter 1 verse 1
And yes we Christians are grafted into the vine John 15 and Romans 11 verses 1 thru. 27. This message also confirms the Jews are Gods chosen people forever. He will not forsake them nor Jesus forsake us.
The gathering is presently taking place against all UN odds.
A M Jesus accomplished it all. He fulfilled the prophesy and will of God that brought the Grace and Mercy through the blood sacrifice of the Son of God and there is no other offering for sin. I believe he will do what God wills .
If we try to use science or a lawyer to decipher the Bible we can not receive the message intended. Read Mark 4 verses 11 thru.12 and the parable of the sower
56 Nathan // Oct 4, 2006 at 2:47 am
The President of Iran is the Anitchrist.
57 Charles Wesley // Oct 4, 2006 at 3:10 am
I have considered that ,But the book of Daniel chapter 11 verse 37 makes me think he will be of Jewish ancestry . In a documentary about the Vatican the indication was that one of the future Popes could be the Antichrist. There is a Jewish cardinal, who knows?
Check out the site (Dajjal) the Islamic address this same thought.
58 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 4, 2006 at 4:05 am
If you wish, then I say with reserve: Islamic “brutality” is - say 1000 years old? Fine. Vatican Lead Brutality is 2 millennia old from the Inquisition to the Protestant Cleansing to the Crusades and finally to the Holocaust, Sack of Constantinople (The Byzantine one), Real Estate business selling plots of land in heaven (yeah right!), slavery – and more.
You know what, it hasn’t stopped.
In the name of God they speak, in the name of God, may they all SHUT up. If Mohammed conquered with the sword, and his followers followed him, they are less hypocrites than the masters of the Vatican, whose Jesus called for love and Mercy, and his weapon was multiplying bread and fish and raising the dead. They shed blood and hatred in his name.
How do they answer to that?
Shame.
59 AMorton // Oct 4, 2006 at 5:24 am
Hey Charles,
The Discussion of Romans 9, 10 and 11 is simply this:
Its one consistant discussion. Yes, there are promises that Israel will be saved. Those promises are found in the Old Testament. The fact that most Jews are not saved does not give a lie to those promises. Those promises have come true none the less, but they have come true to the Israel that God had in mind. Which means the remnant of Jews who were in fact believers, as well as Gentiles who were believers, who were added in with them, and this new entity made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles is nothing other than the blend of what the remnant of Israel was in the Old Testament. The only difference is that there are now more Gentiles then Jews, while back in the Old Testament there were more Jews then Gentiles who were the faithful remnant. But still the same - that is - one constant ecklesia(sp), Israel of God, the ones to whom the promises apply.
Now, did Paul believe this? You bet he did.
Look at 2 Cor 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
And Galatians 3:29
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Paul clearly says this as well in Romans 11. He says:
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Paul is saying here that he is proof that God has not cast away His people, the ones whom He forknew. The ones whom He forknew are not all Israel for just as Paul said: “Not all Israel is of Israel.” Meaning on the remnant is. And the remnant are all believing people. We have been included in on that if you are obiedient to Christ.
What conclusion must be drawn by this. The conclusion is only one thing. If a Jew is not in Christ that Jew is no better off than the pagan. He is lost in his sins.
You guys are so hung up on the Jew today but God says they are lost if outside of Christ. They need a Redeemer and the Redeemer is only Christ Jesus. Stop lifting to sonship the lost and preach the Gospel to them instead.
60 Charles Wesley // Oct 4, 2006 at 11:58 pm
A Morton,
Do you realize that your objections to bible prophesy is centered on the denial of the covenant made by God with the Jews (Romans 11 verse 27 ,28, TWENTY NINE ,30 and on–
The Regathering of the Jews, the rebuilding of the temple the thousand year rein, the Jews being Gods chosen people.
You need to read carefully the Bible by itself. It needs no clarification ,I believe that the GOD that created this world knew what he was doing when he created the Bible also.
Surely all of the bible scholars that have studied their whole life in all the world can’t have miss interpreted those items.
There is only a small percentage of people that subscribe to those beliefs . If you read Ezekiel 37 as well then you will see that God will forgive their sins back to the time when Jesus was rejected ,and yes Jews can retrace their ancestry back to Abraham as well as those in Christ.
There are a lot of true Jews all over the world yet to be repatriated .
61 Charles Wesley // Oct 5, 2006 at 12:25 am
Christian’s are grafted into the Jewish ancestry to Abraham.
Going to church , back latter.
62 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 2:05 am
A Morton,
Do you realize that your objections to bible prophesy is centered on the denial of the covenant made by God with the Jews (Romans 11 verse 27 ,28, TWENTY NINE ,30 and on–
I would point to these verses to show that the “blinded” jews were blinded because they were not part of the remant of God in the first place. They demonstrated this by thier rejection of the Messiah.
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Jesus is that stumbling stone.
1 Corinthians 1:23
…but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles
And Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul here says the Jews have not been rejected until some future times of the Gentiles is complete. Instead Paul says no, the Jews are not rejected. This would have been a great place for Paul to say something like “Sure, the Jews are rejected now, but wait, in the future they won’t be”. Instead He points to Himself as proof!
Romans 11 goes on to give the example of how a “remant” was chosen, just as in the past. And then OT examples are quoted. One of them says:
“And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Interesting that it gives the reason why these seven thousand were kept. They were not idolators! They had not given up on the true God and gone to worship false gods.
So I would say the same thing happend to the Jews at that time. Those who turned or were turned from God also rejected the Messiah. God hardened/blinded them because they were not part of the remnant. They were not faithful Jews in the first place.
63 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 2:14 am
The Regathering of the Jews, the rebuilding of the temple the thousand year rein, the Jews being Gods chosen people.
You need to read carefully the Bible by itself. It needs no clarification ,I believe that the GOD that created this world knew what he was doing when he created the Bible also.
Charles, maybe you will show me where it is foretold that a third temple will be built, that outside of Chris the Jews are the choosen? This would be very helpful for our discussion. I mean I can geralize just as easily as the next guy, but I have not done so. I have provide Scripture to prove itself. Do you not agree that we should let Scripture interpret Scripture?
As far as Scolars. Do you have any paticular ones I should follow after? Hal Lindsey, Tommy Ice? Which infallible Scholar should I follow? Nevermind. I will stay with Christ and His disciples. I believe thaty have the interpretation just right.
Christian’s are grafted into the Jewish ancestry to Abraham.
Going to church , back latter.
Charles, again you have missed it. The church is grafted to the vine, the vine is Christ. How could you have missed that? “I am the vine, you are the branches” . Sound familiar to you, Charles.
I wish you were in my classroom, I would love showing you these things in more depth.
64 Charles Wesley // Oct 5, 2006 at 3:06 am
A.Morton
The Antichrist sits in the temple as he is God (2nd. Thess. 2 verse 4 ) remember the Abomination that maketh desolate in Daniel ,Matthew. How does it get there it does not exist now?
My bible does not say the word church, it said;ye ,you ,he ,to be sure he is personally addressing the reader in John 15.
What book are you reading?
65 Charles Wesley // Oct 5, 2006 at 3:23 am
It has been real. So long.
66 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 3:28 am
I find hurling insults unbecoming Charles. Have I ever accused you of not reading you Bible or not reading the same book as I have. Be nice now.
Let me make it plain to you. I am a partial preterist(actually we all are because preteist simply means believing that some prophecy has been fulfilled. Its just that we differ on how much). I believe the Bible teaches this. Matthew, Mark and Luke all confirm that the times described by Jesus are the days that took place only 40 years after the time of His asscension. The temple was still in existance at the time of Paul’s writings and was written for the readers of his day. Howerver, as I have already said in another posting here, which I think you must not have read, if it is for a future time the Bible makes it very clear that we are the temple of God. God dwells in us because we have accepted Christ as our Saviour. What do you think could possibly make God dwell in a temple built of stone and mortar? The temple of the OT was a shadow of the better temple. Do you agree? Once the substance of the shadow has come than the shadow becomes obsolete. This is the simple truth. If you want to go over Daniel in a verse by verse discussion or any book chapter and verse I am more than happy to do so, but be prepared to back up any of your claims with Scripture. As it stands today, you have failed to do this. Unless you take me up on an indepth study I would say our discussion is over.
67 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 5, 2006 at 6:01 am
Based on the CURSES the CREATOR places on the disobedient and rebellious in Dueteronomy 27:15-26 the ONLY way to see this as a ‘blessing’ is to IGNORE THE TRUTH.
what the Torah says:
Whoever has a carved or metal statue [or perhaps maybe a bomb or DU tipped missile would qualify ], anything disgusting to the LORD that was made by a craftsman, and sets it up in secret will be CURSED.
Whoever MOVES HIS NEIGHBOR’S BOUNDARIES WILL BE CURSED.
Whoever deprives foreigners, orphans, or widows of justice will be CURSED.
68 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 5, 2006 at 6:15 am
“The Zionists are NOT Jews according to RACE. Rather, they are the DESCENDANTS of a HOARD OF PAGANS who pressed into Russia in the first century of our era and in due time became PROSELYTES of Judaism.
In 692 A.D., they formed the Khazar Kingdom. In 955 A.D., Russia conquered them. They are neither JEWS BY RACE , nor are the GENUINELY JEWISH IN RELIGION .
They PASS THEMSELVES OFF AS JEWS , AND PRETEND that they are descendants of ISRAEL , and therefore, have RIGHT TO PALESTINE as their homeland, but they are FALSE IN THEIR CLAIMS AND ARE IRRELIGIOUS in their living.
The ORTHODOX Jews who have long been settled in Hebron, Jerusalem, Tiberias, and Safed, DO NOT WELCOME THEM to the Holy Land. Orthodox and Reformed Jews alike DISCLAIM ALL SYMPATHY WITH THEM, and DISOWN THEM .”
69 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Post 68 is true
70 CALLIE // Oct 5, 2006 at 4:29 pm
I have read some of your items AMorton. I also listened a bit to an audio on your website. Regarding post 68. Quite strong. But it does sound true. This is something I never heard before.
Charles, you have to admit. AMorton makes good sense.
I think Charles may have left us in an angry huff.
I am going to go back to my reading of your link and try to finish the Audio from your website, AMorton.
I hope you don’t mind, but I will put your website into my favourites. It’s time to start seeing and learning again, or maybe for the first time.
Peace to All.
71 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Callie, I have much you could use then. I will put a link on the website so that you can read more enlightening aspects of God’s Word. You may agree with most and not others and that is okay, but please feel free to read. I will label the link in the menu column and call it “More Articles”
Be watching and be prepared to be blessed.
http://undergodproductions.com
72 Victor Passenheim // Oct 5, 2006 at 9:59 pm
To Callie and AMorton,
Callie - read the Bible for yourself and allow it’s truth to speak to you.
AMorton - stop twisting the Scripture to fit your anti-Israel views. You’ll see a regathering of Israel and then you’ll have to swallow all the baloney you’ve been spewing.
73 AMorton // Oct 5, 2006 at 11:40 pm
Yeah Victor, I have heard that all before and it was when I was in bondage to the Christian Zionist View. However, when ever I ask those still in that bondage where the NT speaks of a regathering of ethnic Jews then they all come up empty handed. Would you like to give it a try?
74 Victor Passenheim // Oct 6, 2006 at 1:28 am
No AMorton, the NT alone does not constitute the totality of Scripture, but you’re making a blatant denial of what a great deal of Scripture is VERY clear on.
75 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 2:12 am
Ok Vic, give me a such as and we can discuss it.
76 Joyce // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:06 am
Here are some verses I found to tell of prophecies to come.
Magog’s invasion of Israel is specifically stated as being in the latter days (Ezekiel chapter 38 verse16).
Victory over Magog (Ezekiel chapter 39 verse 6).
Regathering of Jews(Ezekiel chapter 39 verse 27).
Plans for a new Temple (Ezekiel chapter 40).
God bless you.
77 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:37 am
Not all “Jews” are of Judah, just as Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 tell us. They are EDOMITES, and IMPOSTERS that are passing themselves of as of The House of Judah, and that for a very wicked purpose.
The Orthodox Jews do not understand who these Zionists are, and think they are also “Jews.” They are not. It is the parable of “The Tares”, the “seed” sown by the devil, that while growing up with the wheat, looks exactly the same. However, this changes when the plants mature and bear fruit. That fruit is now coming forth, and it is EVIL CONTINUALLY.
78 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:50 am
Why has Germany and France opposed this war in Iraq, as if it were something abominable???
I will give you the answer. It is simply because it means BILLIONS of lost Iraqi Revenues to BOTH of them.
This war is over OIL, MONEY, and who needs to gain control of the world’s wealth to maintain their authority over THE NEW WORLD ORDER!!!
When you understand all that was transpiring behind the scenes involved with MONEY, you then understand why this war REALLY took place!!!
79 Nathan // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:56 am
I do not see the biblical correlations of great powers going to war and so on with Israel in this supposed end of days, end of times, “prophecies” if you will. Since 1948 Israel has consistently defeated all threats that have risen against her and Israel continues to be terrorized by a group of Arab terrorists called “palestinians”. Who is actually going to invade Israel and have their homelands decimated by Israeli nuclear weapons? Why invade? I do not see this whole end game ending with the antichrist and such. Why would God stop his master plan? Why put humanity through such a horrific time? Same line of thinking I ask if God is so merciful why did he allow September 11th to happen? For that matter why did he allow the Holocaust to take place? I have a belief in God, but what is he really? Where those incidents just victories for evil in their long war against good? Or did God just set up the criteria to live and we just live within those criteria, branching out and creating our own ways but still living within those criteria? In that case does humanity even have a right to exist anymore? Should that not have been revoked some thousands of years ago? Bottom line is somebody set this place up and if it ends up like that it will seem like a cruel joke. But I think the USA and Israel will win in the end. I would say if there is a good and evil on this planet the Arabs are evil and Israel and America are good. And any war is fought with a military and the Arabs do not match up against Israel. I am not trying to attack anyone’s religion either; I am just asking for information and opinions from all of you to help me understand this complicated place we live in. Thanks.
80 Billy // Oct 6, 2006 at 4:58 am
What is your point Esau. Make a point. Are you trying to say that any person that is not a Jew is a waste of humanity. Or should not be in Israel because they are not of the seed of Issac. Your army would not be as powerful with out those imposter’s. How about letting .God separate them out, after all he calls the shots .
81 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 5:41 am
Joyce of post #76, I have time right now to only respond to a small part of your posting. That is concerning Ezekiel chapter 38 verse16. I will say only this at this time. If verse 16 is referring to anytime yet in our future then we must still deal with the identity of who Gog is because verse 17 says:
17″…Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them?”
if this “Gog” has been spoken of by the prophets of Israel for years in advance, then we should be able to identify through Scripture exactly who Ezekiel is speaking of.
I would like to approach this again if you will allow me.
Also Joyce, I want to say I appreciate your tone, Thank you.
82 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 5:58 am
“Is the religious right being duped into accepting the NWO and luring millions in turn to “getting chipped”?
83 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 6:12 am
You are being too general Billy. I never said that. No where in my in my words did I say what you imply.
I do not have an army.
Yes, only God can examine the heart of man.
84 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 6, 2006 at 7:05 am
The Edomites
Genesis 25 records that Rebekah bore Isaac paternal twin sons, Esau, whose name was changed to Edom, and Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. While still in the womb the two sons of Isaac “struggled together within her.” Yahweh explained this rivalry to Rebekah:
…Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]. (Genesis 25:23)
Soon after the two boys had grown, this promise began to find its fulfillment. Genesis 25 relates that Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red beans. Genesis 27 relates that the patriarchal blessing also became the possession of Jacob.
As a result of the subsequent bitterness and jealousy, Esau would have destroyed Jacob had Yahweh not intervened
85 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 5:47 pm
A sobering question Zionists should ask as well as all Christians, Is it possible to have a relationship with Jesus Christ if our identity is in Judaism?
86 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Callie,
Victor said to you in post #72 -
Callie - read the Bible for yourself and allow it’s truth to speak to you.
I say this is what any person who wants to understand God’s Word should do. I will simply add - Check those things I have said against the Word of God and see if they are true.
87 CALLIE // Oct 6, 2006 at 8:06 pm
AMorton can you explain to me how Jesus can be a Jew? Or was the definition “Jew” around that time? Then was Jesus and Israelite, Hebrew? What of his mother Mary? How can they be Jewish if Moses and Abraham were not?
I know that you are busy. I have been reading the Gideons Bible. It does speak of those “conditions” mentioned in the audio, however, the audio is much more clear and abundant with meaning.
I am sorry, I am not good at deciphering the meaning of versus from the Bible. I need things to be broken down to me in simple terms.
I know everyone is busy. I will try to make do with what I have before me.
Yes, AMorton, I have your link. I am still listening to the audio. I am only on the second one in the middle of it.
Esau, you are very funny. I have a very hard time believing that God would favour one child over another.
If anyone can explain that to me in biblical verse with broken down simple terms, I would appreciate this greatly.
No rush. I understand that everyone is busy. I am sorry to be so slow and dim-witted.
Blessings to all.
88 AMorton // Oct 6, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Here comes the firestorm, Callie because technically you are correct. In fact Jesus was a Galilean or resident of Galilee (Matthew 26:69; John 7:41), and a Judahite or descendent of the Tribe of Judah. The Judeans of prominence were not of the Tribe of Judah, but of Edomites. Pilate was being ironic when he wrote the sign “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Judeans” for the Cross (John 19:19). That is, “the Galilean who was King of the Judeans,” as in “Queen Victoria of England, Empress of India.” Jesus grew up in Nazareth in Galilee. His disciples were fishermen from the Sea of Galilee. And although He visited Jerusalem, he spent most of His life in his home country of Galilee. John 7:1, “After this Jesus stayed in Galilee; for He could not walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him.” His followers were constrained “for fear of the Jews” (John 7:13, 19:38, 20:19).
This is one of those mistaken beliefs that Jesus was a Jew.
89 Nathan // Oct 7, 2006 at 12:19 am
Does anybody know how an American can move to Israel? I am moving out of the USA and want to go there, I am not Jewish, and am willing to volunteer for the IDF? Any ideas? I am willing to give up my citizenship to.
90 Charles Wesley // Oct 7, 2006 at 12:21 am
Matthew 1 verse 1 gives the lineage of Jesus as being the descendant of Jesse and David , are they not the seed of Issac . The Pharisees didn’t care who he was ,they did not like being told that they were hypocrits and wretched. They had to get rid of that new prophet that did not honour them. He was stealing their fire.
91 Joyce // Oct 7, 2006 at 1:15 am
The genealogy of Jesus Christ is told in the book of Matthew chapter 1 verses 1 thru 17. This is according to the King James Version of the Bible. That is the only proof that I need of Jesus’ Jewish descent.
God bless you.
92 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 1:19 am
Callie, my dear, look at what has been written at another angle.
God hates what Esau represents. God hates the crimes of Esau.
Only for convenience is it written, or do we say that God hates Esau, though God really hates what Esau lacks in his heart, unlike Jacob.
Jesus did not hate the Pharisees, but he despised and hated their evil ways of living.
That is the best that I can explain to you. Unless Morton has a better take.
I am always willing to Listen.
93 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 1:25 am
Nathan,
Then you must go to Israel. And then may God open your eyes and heart while you are there making your sacrifice as soldier for the IDF.
94 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 2:47 am
Joyce, it is all anybody needs, but iron sharpens iron and to learn the details of anything is not necessarily a bad thing.
95 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 2:50 am
Undergodproductions.com discussion board is open for anyone who would like to be a part of friendly exchanges.
http://undergodprod.proboards54.com/index.cgi
96 Charles Wesley // Oct 7, 2006 at 3:02 am
Victor , I agree lets study the word of God as Brethren not as enemies. Jesus himself with all his miracles could not convince all those that heard his Gospel. God knows people seek a sign or proof of their belief ,but they will not find it.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what is required for salvation. Lucifer knows who . He knows Jesus is and trembles. God could make you know who Jesus is ,instead he chose believers . If your heart is set toward God you will see and comprehend , otherwise it will confound you.
Long Live Gods People Blessings and Peace
97 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 3:38 am
Now, let us look at Esau’s character, says one, “did he deserve that God should cast him away?”
I answer, he did. What we know of Esau’s character clearly proves it. Esau lost his birthright. Do not sit down and weep about nor blame God. Esau sold it himself; he sold it for a mess of pottage.
Oh, Esau, it is in vain for thee to say, “I lost my birthright by decree.” No, no. Jacob got it by decree, but you lost it because you sold it yourself, didn’t you?
Was it not your own bargain? Did you not take the mess of red pottage of your own voluntary will, in lieu of the birthright?
Your destruction lies at your own door, because you sold your own soul at your own bargain, and you did it yourself.
Did God influence Esau to do that? God forbid. God is not the author of sin. Esau voluntarily gave up his own birthright. And the doctrine is that every man who loses heaven gives it up himself.
Every man who loses everlasting life rejects it himself. God denies it not to him; he will not come that he may have life.
Why is it that a man remains ungodly and does not fear God? It is because he says, “I like this drink, I like this pleasure, I like this Sabbath-breaking, better than I do the things of God.”
No man is saved by his own free-will, but every man is damned by it that is damned. He does it of his own will; no one constrains him.
98 Victor Passenheim // Oct 7, 2006 at 4:34 am
Rock on Charles, Rock on Joyce!
99 Victor Passenheim // Oct 7, 2006 at 4:36 am
BTW Joyce, I love your pithy answers. Mark on. Of course, they will keep asking the same questions to which there are obvious answers, but you know why.
100 AMorton // Oct 7, 2006 at 5:25 am
Victor, do you live in fear about everything or only those things that challenge your comfort zone? I have yet to hear anything substantial coming from you.
Let’s see isf you can answer this question. How much of Abraham’s blood does it take to be of Israel?
101 Charles Wesley // Oct 7, 2006 at 6:04 am
Deception can be ever so slight and have such great consequences .Doubt can kill your soul . There are so many that strain at a gnat and swallow a camel . Care must be taken that you do not drive away a soul from the Lord as you may be their only contact with Christianity .
You must put self aside and give God the glory. Pride in what you have accomplished in your Christian life is vanity. Your righteousness is like unto filthy rags ,and so goes your ministry outside of God. Man could only fail on his own.
102 Joyce // Oct 7, 2006 at 6:30 am
Thanks Victor,
I just trust in God’s words, and I know I can’t go wrong.
God bless you.
103 CALLIE // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:24 am
Charles!
You completely contradict yourself! And besides, you can be a very dangerous human being when you take the word of God and slant it to your way of “wanting to believe” when perhaps you clear don’t understand the scripture fully.
You are not to take the Lord’s name in vain and use it to suit your needs! This is vanity!
You and Victor speak too much for the Lord and I don’t think this is right.
Yes Charles, deception can be ever so slight and have very great consequences!
Why don’t you give me an example, so that I can understand what you mean by this?
104 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:36 am
Jesus was not a Jew as we now understand the term. Remember, only the small remnant which returned from Babylon, and their descendants , were called Jews.
Moreover, we know from Ezra’s attempts to dissolve and prevent such unions that a great deal of intermarriage took place at this time.
Jesus was, of course, a descended from Judah in fulfillment of the Word of God, but through the line of David, and the house of David were never known as Jews.
The Jews knew that the promised Messiah would be a descendant of Judah, of the Royal House of David.
Notice the inspired words of Zacharias Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people, and hath raised up an horn for salvation for us in the HOUSE OF HIS SERVANT DAVID (Luke 1: 68, 69).
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was (John 7:42).
105 Esau I Have Hated // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:40 am
Again the Bible says, “